<p>JHS - I agree with you. Columbia should give their recruiters better information or not let them say such obnoxious things at HS college fairs. I am simply relating back what I was told by one of their alum recruiters. Our school is a demographic niche (not to mention a perceived deep pocket). We have had many solid applicants admitted to Columbia over the years who have been sucessful. They typically apply to FU. According to this alum they see very few (as compared to what I don't know) applicants to FU from Texas. Probably because TX has three Engineering schools that rank higher than Columbia (US News and World Report) and are significantly less expensive. </p>
<p>The majority of student who apply to Columbia from our district have parents that are from the east coast.</p>
<p>Just a P.S. here...DD is a VERY accomplished oboe and English horn player. She ranked in our state for four years and played in the youth orchestra first chair. It didn't help her ONE BIT in her college admissions...not one bit. And yes, the schools she applied to DID need oboe players (she asked).</p>
<p>SAT Math CR to ACT Composite ACT Composite to SAT Math + CR 1600 = 36 36 = 1600
1560-1590 = 35 35 = 1580
1510-1550 = 34 34 = 1520<br>
1460-1500 = 33 33 = 1470
1410-1450 = 32 32 = 1420</p>
<p>I have included both charts from last year.<br>
I can see exactly how many or few students receive these lofty scores and it is clear that when you add HYPMSC together, there may actually be enough slots for all of them. I think that many students, correctly choose a school that is suited to their major, personality, temperment and pocketbook.</p>
<p>Thumper: I hope you understand that I was using oboe player as a euphemism for special talents. I use it interchangeably with tuba and bassoon. There are just fewer of these instruments in the orchestra.</p>
<p>UnivMom
"Normal is not necessarily a negative term to my D who believes that she has finally attained this most humble status after years of being considered a geek or a super nerd. "
I think the title of this thread should have been "Do average kids get into the Ivy league etc, etc........."
"Normal" in my mind = average. Others may disagree.
I also don't think that gifted students, like your D, are the same as "normal", or "average" students. My son is like your D-gifted, was always different in the way he looked at the world, and had abilities far beyond those of his peers. He will never be "normal", but now he is finally accepted by his peers, I think because both he and they have matured. His abilities haven't changed, but other students have come to appreciate him as a total person, and not just someone who is "different" from them.</p>
<p>Univmom, they are lofty numbers but IMO at the end of the day, however rare the numbers may be - they'll still not get you in. What those numbers can do for you is put a Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval on matching data such as : "One of the best in my career", great GPA in hardest courseload, superior rank, courses taken past the highest level courses offered at school, and essays that reek of personality and promise. And that is very valuable.</p>
<p>Many extraordinary traits are not measured by standard measures, but some colleges are good at excavating them.</p>
<p>So much goes into admissions, that yes, some of the accepted kids are normal in the sense of ordinary. Most are probably normal in the sense of being a regular person to hang out with even if they weren't when young.</p>
<p>Cur - I agree. I still believe, however, that they use the scores to cull out students who might have trouble with the curriculum at a competitive school. There was a comment about # of students achieving these scores, so I posted the links with the stats from ACT and the CollegeBoard.</p>
<p>Menlopark - a lot of GT kids, in particular girls, go low profile by the end of second grade. Girl culture does not accept smart girls. There are numerous publications about how gifted and smart girls are cheated, treated unfairly, etc. This has been D's experience as well. They are not encouraged by teachers and they are treated brutally by their peers, male and female (didn't you see "Mean Girls"?). </p>
<p>When a boy asks a question about Calculus to clarify something he is answered, when my D asks such questions the teacher tells her in front of the whole class that she is stupid. I have heard about this from other kids in the class that stop by our house for Calc tutoring (yes, she runs a Calculus study group 6for girls). We have run into a lot of stupid teachers like this over the years. Fortunately, the science teachers love her and do not seem to be intimidated by the fact that she ends up correcting their math or showing them a shortcut or easier alternative to solving the problem. I appreciate teachers with good self esteem.
But, I have digressed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The Columbia alum recruiters that came to my Ds school (the only Ivy to show up and were ironically ignored by most students and parents at her HS, go figure...
[/quote]
UnivMom, I know many people here (only ten miles from Columbia) who were disgusted by the U's decision to bring in Ahmadinejad & no longer will consider it for their kids. Maybe that attitude had someting to do with the lack of interest at your college fair. Just a thought.</p>
<p>I've seen just the opposite treatment of gifted girls, by the way. I see them heavily encouraged by teachers, who often have less patience for gifted boys if an "ants in the pants" squirminess accompanies their giftedness. Another side of the boy gifted spectrum I've seen is a friend's gifted son who suffered what I would condsider cruel treatment from some teachers who did not click well with him. This boy would fit the "brainiac" mold, very stereotypical in his awkwardness & poor coordination skills. One labeled him the "Oracle" & this turned into a derisive nickname the entire class would use. Pretty nasty experience for him, and like some gifted boys, he didn't have the "social smarts" to deal with it very well. He's now in a private school & thriving. As menlopark states, sometimes it takes some time for the growth of maturity, both in the gifted kid & his classmates, for school life to become tolerable. On a personal level, D never had to suffer any brutal treatment by peers, luckily.</p>
I think we're close. I wouldn't say "cull". I'd say scores that were lower than expected by the selective school would make suspect other parts of the file. The rest of the pacakge would need to be exceptionally strong to overcome the suspicion that the student might be biting off more than they could chew. But , there are students who can clear that bar-(ex. calmom's exceptional D. Her GPA , courseload, AP scores , rec's , and essays all screamed "I'm somebody you want to add to your quilt".The outlier was the standardized testing , primarily the math. And she was not a math/science intended major. As such she had great admissions results. Did some nix her before getting that deep? Maybe. And that was certainly their loss as her record so far proves she can do exceptional college work. 3.80+. )
[quote]
There was a comment about # of students achieving these scores, so I posted the links with the stats from ACT and the CollegeBoard.
[/quote]
Oh, I'm glad you did. I hadn't seen the new raw numbers , or if so didn't remember them. I just know that when D opened her results her year it was "D-aa-a-a-a-d....uhhhh.....It says I got a thirty five. Can that be right?" I looked up those same charts and she and I sat there for a good while nursing a certain amount of disbelief.</p>
<p>I've always enjoyed hearing about Calmom's D. I think the real standout quality for her was the initiative she took in studying abroad for a year to beef up her Russian language skills. As I reacall, it wasn't an existing school program she joined, either. Didn't she have to pretty much create the oportunity on her own, and negotiate a Russian h.s. wihout a big support network? That shows pretty remarkable independence.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The Columbia alum recruiters that came to my Ds school (the only Ivy to show up and were ironically ignored by most students and parents at her HS, go figure), basically said they first admit all the perfect people who have done something extraordinary. Eg. published a book at 15, started a business that went public, won the Intel or Westinghouse awards ... after that, they are trying to find oboe players, that is they have a niche they are trying to fill on campus.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Then he was playin' with ya. My "normal to you" S is a senior at Columbia. I don't know what niche he might have fulfilled. Being an okay trombone player doesn't seem enough. Had pretty high SATs but not stratospheric, the kind of APs and SATs 2's that get you "have good safeties" comments at this site, and an endearing personality. Shrug. No idea how he got in, but I agree with JHS:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Except that's manifestly not true if you look at whom Columbia accepts. There are plenty of kids in there who are not perfect, just smart and accomplished, and who haven't done anything really out of the ordinary for a smart, accomplished kid, and who don't have any oboe-like function.
<blockquote>
<p>Frequently state recognition in music is insufficient. One needs national or international recognition.>></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Not wishing to highjack this thread...but the above is perhaps true for scholarship consideration at a conservatory, but it is unlikely that it would be essential as an admittance "tip" at a LAC or the like....and especially for a student who is not a music major, or where the is no undergrad music major (Yale, for example). The implication of this "national/international" recognition issue is just what bothers me about this thread. There are many many students at the top whatever schools who do NOT have national or international recognition in anything.</p>
<p>Univmom...I was not offended by your comment, and I fully understood what you meant. But I wanted to say that sometimes a special talent will have no impact on the admissions folks.</p>
<p>Both my kids are very normal, and both at a top 20 school. (Top 20 for now, but who knows? USWNR may have to shuffle the mix to sell some more magazines, and then "gasp" ;) it may drop a few spots and, "another gasp" fall out of the top 20). You might have played DS online in "Halo", or had your groceries carried out by him, or your purchases scanned at Target by him. No science fair, not much in the EC - a nice, smart kid with good test scores, good class rank, sense of humor, and a practical get-the-work-done-with-the-least-amount-of-fuss, then move on attitude. DD might have been the camp counselor at the YMCA for your kid.</p>