<p>I have heard that in UChicago and Duke many students in the pre-med track decide to switch their majors because they are unable to maintain their GPA due to the extreme rigor of those schools. Does this happen a lot at Wash U too? If it does, what do such students end up majoring in? And what happens to their morale?</p>
<p>Yes, a large number of pre-meds drop out of the pre-med track. General chemistry and organic chemistry are both weed-out classes for pre-meds; they turn out to be extremely difficult for many students.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=coloDad]
If it does, what do such students end up majoring in?
[/quote]
Pre-med is not a major, so I’m guessing a lot of them just stick with whatever major they had before, or change majors for some other reason. I don’t believe dropping out of pre-med causes people to switch majors that much.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=coloDad]
And what happens to their morale?
[/quote]
Well, it’s obviously hard to digest at first, but I don’t know of any upperclassmen that are still hung up on not being able to go to medical school.</p>
<p>hirako, Thank you for your response. I was under the opinion that many, but not all, students go into the pre-med track because doctors generally make a good living and their jobs are, for the most part, recession-proof. Let us take a hypothetical case of someone who is doing history major but still nursing ambitions of becoming a doctor. Do history majors also have to take courses in chemistry, organic chemistry, physics and calculus in order to apply to med schools? What happens to such a student who, in his or her junior year, is devastated by the low GPA and abandons all hopes of becoming a doctor? How easy is it to get a job with a history or philosophy ( if such a thing exists) major? What would be their earning potential? Won’t the kid feel very depressed especially if his or her parents took out big loans to finance the $200K education at WUSTL?</p>
<p>BTW, I am not putting down any non-med majors here. I respect all majors and believe we need people with all kinds of education, skills and training in our society. I also believe that one needs to go to college not just to get trained for a profession but to be able to think independently. I am sorry if I struck a raw nerve among any in this group who’ve had their pre-med ambitions thwarted at WashU. Am only asking some hypothetical questions before making a decision on sending my D to WashU which, I truly believe, is a great school. No questions there.</p>
<p>coloDad - there’s definitely plenty of time for someone with a non-science major to take pre-med courses. In my opinion, it’s easier in ArtSci, because the pre-med courses fulfill more of their requirements than in the Engineering or business schools (but it’s possible for those too, with a little planning).</p>
<p>Anyone who wants to apply to medical school has to take the MCAT, which covers Biology and Organic Chemistry (Biological Sciences Section), General Chemistry and Physics (Physical Sciences Section), and Verbal Reasoning / Writing.</p>
<p>As such, the pre-med courses are: 1 year Biology, 1 year Physics, 1 year General Chemistry, 1 year Organic Chemistry.</p>
<p>Calculus is not required at the majority of schools, though a few (like Harvard, I believe) do require it… As such, the year of physics need not be calc based unless you want to apply to a med school that requires it.</p>
<p>Because undergrad GPA is such a major factor in admissions, there’s a lot of advice floating around that people should major in something they will do well in. It doesn’t necessarily need to be science… History or whatever is fine, and medical schools want to see people pursue and excel at whatever they do. That said, there’s obviously no guarantee for admission to med school, something like 50% get rejected their first time applying… So, at least in my case, I’m planning to major in something that will allow me to have a career other than physician school should that fall through.</p>
<p>I have nothing against History majors, but jobs in the field are few and far between and I know many people personally who majored in that field and wound up in jobs completely unrelated to their major with no real prospects of something History related. </p>
<p>As an example, the last 3 managers at the Panera Bread where I live have all had a Bachelors in History from respectable schools.</p>
<p>ColoDad - the answer to one of your questions is yes, you have to take those core courses of chem, organic chem, biology to a certain level, etc. no matter what your major. If you do not med schools will not consider you.</p>
<p>The rest of what you posit is a very difficult situation because you bring up a lot of factors. As you know from previous posts, your hypothetical is exactly why I think that if the $200K is a real hardship and would result in years of significant impact on all concerned, then there are perfectly good alternatives that represent a better value, emphasis on the word value, which is a personal calculation. Having said that, I also believe people should pursue their academic passion as undergrads without regard to the earning potential afterwards. That may seem pollyanna, but I truly believe that if a person is excellent at what they do, there will always be opportunities to be successful financially. Perhaps not as likely to get rich or even very well off, but still can do pretty well and be happy. And some history majors have sold lots of books and made pretty darned good money. As likely as if they were MD’s? No, but you get the idea.</p>
<p>BTW - you really cannot say non-med major because there is no med major as an undergrad. In that sense everyone is a non-med major. People are not trained to be doctors as undergrads, at least not specifically. That is what med school is for.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=coloDad]
I was under the opinion that many, but not all, students go into the pre-med track because doctors generally make a good living and their jobs are, for the most part, recession-proof.
[/quote]
Well, it is true that health care is a fairly recession-proof industry, but you have to remember that unlike yourself (I take it you’re a parent), many college students are too idealistic to worry about money ;)</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=coloDad]
Let us take a hypothetical case of someone who is doing history major but still nursing ambitions of becoming a doctor. Do history majors also have to take courses in chemistry, organic chemistry, physics and calculus in order to apply to med schools?
[/quote]
Of course. You are expected to take 2 semesters of general chemistry, 2 semesters of organic chemistry, 2 semesters of physics, and 2 semesters of calculus. I’m not sure what the biology requirements are, and there are some other requirements I’ve forgotten about. However, being a history major can be an advantage in applying to medical schools; they like applicants with “unusual” majors.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=coloDad]
What happens to such a student who, in his or her junior year, is devastated by the low GPA and abandons all hopes of becoming a doctor?
[/quote]
That’s generally not the case. You’ll generally know by the end of sophomore year at the latest whether or not you have a shot at getting into medical school.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=coloDad]
How easy is it to get a job with a history or philosophy ( if such a thing exists) major? What would be their earning potential? Won’t the kid feel very depressed especially if his or her parents took out big loans to finance the $200K education at WUSTL?
[/quote]
Well, there are definitely places you can go with those majors, such as law school. But yes, that is an issue, and I’m not too knowledgeable on that topic, as I’m an engineering major. Maybe someone else knows?</p>
<p>Why would anyone want to take a 200K loan for undergrad education? I am sure there are other oppurtunites available in so many different colleges. Cannot justify that at least in this economy! Go to a college which wants you and not your money is my 2 cents…</p>
<p>coloDAD:</p>
<p>The majority of kids who start out with medical ambitions at virtually all schools do not end up applying to medical school. Some simply can’t handle the required classes such as Organic Chemistry. Others shadow a doctor and realize it’s not for them. Other realize that the only thing that pointed them to medicine was the prestige and supposed salary, both of which has seriously declined in the past 20 years. The good news at WashU, Duke, U Chicago and other top schools is that for those who stick it out, they almost all get into a medical school, whereas nationwide, less than 50% of those who apply each year do not get into any medical school.</p>
<p>Your child should choose the school he or she will like. Life can take many twists and turns, but if you’re happy at school, the outcome will likely be good.</p>
<p>One of the biggest mistakes entering college students make is to get caught up in the pre-Med RAT RACE! Just don’t go there. </p>
<p>College should be about personal growth and discovery. It should be about exploration and realization. </p>
<p>If you ‘declare’ to the world and particularly to your class and the pre-Med advisor you are in for a world of gloom and anxiety. First you will be advised to take one of the toughest freshman class loads one can imagine. Many of the classes are deisigned to clear out the number of pre-Meds. In some colleges 90% of the freshman class declares pre-Med on day one. After the first chemistry quiz the number plummets. By the end of four years the percent is about 5-10% depending on the school and other factors. </p>
<p>Second, you will have a target on your back. Sure some other pre-Meds will be your friends and many will not even know you. But there will be games played sooner or later. Pimping you just before a big exam, stealing notes for your upcoming paper, messing your laboratory results one way or another will be common place in some schools. </p>
<p>Third, and most importantly, you will sooner or later run into a few really calm, cool, people who are taking some of the same science courses as you but are majoring in English, Philosophy, East Asian studies, etc. You will get to know some of them and find out they just got back from a semester or a year abroad, work in local free clinic, or just have to work a lot to stay in school. And then you find out they are pre-Med. What the…!? </p>
<p>They did it the smart way in my book. They went to college to grow into the decision to become something, in this case a doctor. Along the way…personal growth and discovery, exploration and realization. </p>
<p>The decision to become a doctor (or lawyer, or widget maker) doesn’t not have to be made the day you start college. You do have to keep your options open so pay attention to medical school requirements and the ability to take the science courses you do need in the three or so years before you take the MCAT. Most importantly enjoy yourself.</p>
<p>While HonestDescendent has some good points, I don’t think a lot of those descriptions accurately reflect Wash U. I’m a freshman pre med, and I don’t feel like my schedule is too hard, and I definitely have never had another student do anything like what you said to me. It’s actually a pretty friendly group, if you ask me. </p>
<p>Anyway, if you’re considering pre-med, it would not be smart to just say that you don’t want to get “caught up in the rat race” and not take the recommended freshman science classes…it makes future years more difficult. Plus, I think those classes are useful for helping you determine whether medicine is right for you. My attitude going in was that if pre-med was wrong for me, I’d rather find out sooner than later so I could start focusing on whatever I preferred.</p>
<p>Nobody here is mentioning the very real possibility of undergraduate students not going to med school but instead continuing with a biology or chemistry major and graduating with a bachelors, masters or doctoral degree in the biological or physical sciences. Before the recession kicked in, biotech and pharma companies (and research universities 
) were hiring scientists quite rapidly and Wash U is definitely strong in the sciences. Many freshman pre-meds realize they prefer staying in the pure science fields as opposed to going into medicine, and the employment opportunities for such individuals should continue to be very strong, with very promising careers in the sciences.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/691101-heard-100-k-debt-survival.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/691101-heard-100-k-debt-survival.html</a></p>
<p>I just want to echo scwymer’s sentiments. While I do think that WashU students are very hardworking, ambitious, and competitive, (just because that’s the nature of the student body to begin with) I haven’t heard of anyone pulling those types of tricks that you tend to hear about at “other” schools. I don’t think students at WashU are the type of students that would go out of the way to “steal important books from the library,” “give false information to a question,” etc.</p>
<p>Not to say that it doesn’t happen (it might), but it’s definitely not the trend and the majority of people here AREN’T like that.</p>
<p>Does anyone have statistics on WashU’s pre-med population?
such as, what % of pre-meds get into med school? What’s the avg GPA and MCAT of those students? How many start off as pre-med and how many change their mind by sophomore/junior year. </p>
<p>By the way, are WashU courses graded on a curve? are some curved and some aren’t?<br>
I’ve heard that all science tests are free-response only, do students find it more difficult than in high school where you have maybe half free-response and half multiple choice?</p>
<p>I would be interested in the statistics too.</p>
<p>Does anyone have answers to nooob’s questions from post #15?</p>
<p>At the biology major information session this weekend, they said roughly 85% of pre-meds get into medical school. Only 8% of washU undergrad premeds matricultate at their med school though. if you have a 3.5 gpa or higher, they said the number goes up to a whopping 92%.</p>
<p>wow… thats very impressive.</p>
<p>kROCK91, when you say “85% of pre-meds get into medical school” does that mean 85% OF THE PRE_MEDS WHO APPLY TO MED SCHOOL get into med school or 85% of the people who declared themselves to be pre-meds while entering Wash U made it to med school? If it is the latter we need to know what % of people get weeded out every year.</p>