Regarding the original thread - which was about either low or high expectations – we have family members who put a lot of pressure on their kids to be athletically competitive at high levels, even insisting that they get D1 scholarships in their sports and that that should drive their choices (this is a family who could WELL afford to pay full fare anywhere). They actually had a custom jacket made up for the father which says “D1 parent” and lists the sports / scholarships. I think this is a family who has a lot of ego invested in “showing off” through sports, and it falls on deaf ears as far as my H and I are concerned, as we couldn’t care less about our children having any kind of sports success or having that factor in any way, shape or form in a decision about college. But guess what? At the end of the day, they weren’t my kids to raise. Not my circus, not my monkeys, which is my new favorite phrase.
I just wanted to respond again to this:
“C’s are not acceptable, nor a peak for any student, unless the child has a real learning disability”
One of my closest RL friends died in 2012 after a heroic 9 month battle with cancer. She left behind a young adult son who was in college at the time, another young adult son who is special needs (Down syndrome) and a daughter who was in high school at the time. Her husband worked and she was the at-home caretaker of the son with Down, so that was an additional complication at the time of her death – the other 2 children were self-sufficient but not this young man.
Now, I have no idea what specifically happened to the daughter’s grades after her mother died – I didn’t ask and it’s not my business whatsoever, nor did it really matter in any scheme of things – we all just wanted to know that she was handling things and coping with her great loss. I do know that she wound up at a directional state university that you’d probably sneer at. In the grand scheme of anything, does that really matter?
No doubt there is a youth sports craze in the US. Amazing to me to see how much it has changed in the 30 years or so since I was a yute myself. Every time I hear someone say the US sucks at math and science I think to myself that if we put the same time, energy, drive and focus into math and science that we put into youth sports, we would be a whole lot better at math and science.
When I have attended state/national level math and science competitions, Asian kids tend to be over-represented. Looking at state level sports competitions, Asian kids tend to be under-represented. Difference of priority and focus.
It’s certainly not for anyone to judge another family but it is sometimes hard to understand some parents. My brother and sister in law only let their kids major in business for undergrad. Didn’t seem like either of them wanted to do that but that was the deal. And my other sister in law told me that the women in our family get “jobs” and don’t have careers. Nice way to motivate her very bright daughter! Hard to watch but none of my business. I know for a fact that they think we are crazy with all of our kids’ activities and difficult academic loads in high school. And I’m sure they will think we’re definitely nuts when we “let” them major in something like English or History.
In any one individual school that might be so, but the comments by the OP, in the end, are general and global. Clearly she would say the same about any kid no matter where they went to school if they had high achieving parents. But certainly you are right that if we were to truly find out that in this one school, these two were the only ones to get C grades, then the discussion, at least some of it, would change some because A) There probably wouldn’t be a normal curve, and B) To the extent there was some semblance of one it would be highly skewed. But we don’t know that about this school (I find it unlikely) and certainly it is not true nationally.
The response of the OP to my point shows that she doesn’t understand probability distributions at all. True, this isn’t a strict probability problem, but the principles apply. And as many have pointed out, in the end she might have zero clue as to factors that might be contributing to the grade results.
I have a nephew who went to a relatively elite school and is gunning for a high status career. S, OTOH, couldn’t care less about the college eliteness or high status of his career. He’s way less “cool”. Sometimes it saddens me that H would probably trade kids in a heartbeat. 
I can’t imagine how I could be any more proud of S than I am.
I’m going to address the original question. I think the OP is being pretty judgmental about her friends. Plenty of kids who aren’t neurotypical appear so to outsiders. But even the families of those kids can have low expectations. I think that stems from a combination of ignorance, the child(ren) not receiving appropriate interventions, and the student becoming frustrated and believing that the fact that they struggle means they’re not as intelligent as their peers. The path can be long and difficult for kids who have been diagnosed; students with issues that haven’t been diagnosed have it much worse.
My husband is an undiagnosed dyslexic. His mother had similar issues in school (although she didn’t admit it until she was in her 80’s). When my husband was young his dad sat him down at the dinner table, in front of all his siblings, and laid out 3 or 4 of the trades offered through BOCES and told him to pick one. He was 14-years-old. That’s a parent with low expectations. My husband got the message. Education wasn’t for him. He struggled all through high school and spent most of his adult life believing he was stupid.
Flash forward 40 years. All but one of the grandchildren has been officially diagnosed with various combinations of dyslexia, dyscalculia, and dysgraphia (and the one who hasn’t is exhibiting signs of mild dyscalculia). The children of their neurotypical (financially successful, small businessowner) child (whose spouse is an MD at a major medical center) went to a private high school then to well known private colleges where their parents were full pay to the tune of $60k/year per kid. They have degrees in things like economics, poli sci, and physical therapy. Occupations that the family has suggested to my (homeschooled) dyslexic kiddo? Hairdresser and home health aide. Those are both honest livings and great for people who like those things. However, my daughter wants to be a scientist.
We’ve always told her not to settle – to figure out what she wants and work for it – but it’s not easy. Homeschooling her has been a full-time job, and we know her issues. I can’t imagine what it’s like for families whose kids haven’t been diagnosed. I can’t even begin to imagine what it’s been like from her end. My in-laws meant well; they wanted my husband to be able to support himself and a family, but the effect was devastating. I try not to judge other parents because you never know what kinds of challenges they’re facing or the effect your judgments may have on them. I listen and offer advice if they ask for it, but mostly I just listen and point out strengths that their kids possess. I think that’s what real friends do.
I have a long time friend who has unrealistically high expectations for her daughter.
My friend, a perfectionist by her own admission, expects everything her daughter does to be perfect and if she falls short it is because she was lazy and didn’t put enough effort into the task.
My son, would be the first to say that I was extremely demanding of him, but my friends expectations even leave me feeling awful for her daughter.
I’ve heard her scold her daughter when her daughter was approaching her for help on homework to tell her that it wasn’t difficult and she just wasn’t trying hard enough. My friend has told me stories about giving her daughter the task of washing the dishes, but then they wind up arguing because they weren’t washed well enough because her daughter didn’t spend enough time and effort on it. When her daughter was in elementary school she took martial arts and had developed a martial arts routine for the school talent show that she was excited about, her mother made her drop out a day or two before the show because she hadn’t spent enough time practicing. Her daughter, now a young teen, has become a cutter and been in therapy a couple different times, which I can understand because even as an outsider, I see that nothing she has done has ever lived up to her mom’s unrealistic standards.
People DON’T like to be told how to parent their kids. Is there a polite way to tell someone who has been a lifelong friend that they’re being far too demanding and need to back off a bit?
“I would also suggest she applies to Ivys At least, she should try ! It is better to try and fail than to fail to try.”
Why? What if a kid simply isn’t interested in those particular 8 schools? What’s the point of applying then? I had kids who were interested in elite schools but for whatever reason, none of the Ivies rang their bells. They still got into great schools though. Why on earth should they have arbitrarily tried for those particular 8?
It is better to determine what path (school, major, etc) will allow you to be happy and successful by your own definition in life. For plenty of students, even high achieving ones, this doesn’t include applying to Ivies. They aren’t Nirvana.
I can’t imagine the point of trying to apply to an Ivy if you’re not really that interested in going there. We all know what a pain those applications are, and how much of a complete roll of the dice it is to get in unless there is something that truly sets you apart. Forget GPA and test scores … everyone has them. Admission hinges on the essay and the interview. So why spend the sweat and stress of crafting that essay if you really don’t care to go there?
@OldFashioned1 said, “it’s cool to be gunning for an elite school and high status career.”
Actually, what I find cool is the kids who are self-motivated and find their own path. Our neighbors are struggling with feeling a bit disappointed that their son, who is studying Biology at an OOS school, will likely be applying to seminary. He’s got good grades and could go to med school. But that’s not his passion. He started the summer after his freshman year at college working part time with the youth ministry of a church near campus. This past year, he was a full time student, an RA (which pays for his room and board plus a stipend), and ran the middle school youth program for this church (which pays enough that he’s been able to pay half of his OOS tuition this year). This summer he’s working with a youth group at a church in another state. As I watch this unfold, it literally takes my breath away, how completely natural this path is for this young man … this is not work for him … it is joy. It comes to him as naturally as breathing. What a blessing he is and will be. I understand his parents’ concerns about how he’ll support himself, etc., but I give the kid a big round of applause for knowing what he loves and going after it and making it happen … 100% on his own.
“It’s cool to be gunning for an elite school and high status career” is code for “everyone pokes their nose into everyone else’s scores / GPA / college acceptance, and everyone thinks that being an investment banker or hedge fund / private equity guy is the coolest thing for no reason other than it makes a lot of money.” No thanks. In our household, we don’t make our decisions based on what others think is “cool.” Under the radar is far more chic and elegant.
Now that the OP is banned, perhaps this thread has run its course?
I would consider my husband and I to be bright and well-educated. We do not have sky high expectations of our kids. Neither one likes sports so I see no reason to make them play sports. Neither one has any interest in debate, theatre, model UN, rocketry, robotics, academic olympiads, etc., so they don’t have to do that either (just band/orchestra). One found a volunteer organization she enjoys, the other one hasn’t yet. We expect As and Bs (as long as some effort is put into the B), and Cs are acceptable if they are really working hard and not quite getting it. I don’t want to see a C because of missing assignments. One of my kids is treated for anxiety and the other for ADHD. Some days, just going to school and doing homework is more than enough.
D16 had no trouble getting into a couple of state flagships with a B+ average, a 30 ACT score and few extracurriculars and she’s perfectly happy with her choice. I consider an 18 year old to be an emerging adult who has her whole life ahead of her to find her passions. I would have supported her if she had wanted to take all the APs and do 7 extracurriculars, but I don’t think she’s a failure because she wasn’t the captain or president of anything or because she had to work hard for a C in some math courses. I guess people like OP must be judging me for not having good enough children.
I find that a bit ironic considering even with the pre-professional oriented side of my extended family, the undergrad business major was one which they’d tend to only allow for the students in the family who “weren’t intellectually inclined” as indicated by HS/K-12 academic performance AND how they conducted themselves and the type of interests they had outside of school. It was considered one of the major of last choice before considering turning to vocational school, working a full-time job to be obtained with a HS credential, enlisting in the armed forces at 17/18, etc.
A reason why they allowed it for some relatives while strongly discouraging it for those with strong academic records and/or those who they perceived as being “intellectually inclined”.
There has also been some discussion in the newsmedia about the lack of academic rigor/challenge with many undergrad business majors as seen here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/education/edlife/edl-17business-t.html?_r=0
Also, one of the past financial firms I worked for in the Boston area GOT BURNED* with past hires from undergrad B-schools outside the very elite Wharton, NYU-Stern, UVA-Mcintire, UMich-Ross, Berkeley-HAAS, etc that their unofficial policy was to not hire any applicant with an undergrad business major unless it was from a school in that elite tier.
Ironically, they would seriously consider and hire Arts & Science majors from the very regional/lower-tiered colleges whereas those colleges’ undergrad b-school applicants’ resumes are immediately sent to the circular file.
- Such past hires had serious issues with basic math proficiency AND communication issues which ended up causing serious headaches with supervisors and great embarrassment with senior executives/clients.
I’m responding late but this is a topic near and dear to me.
Yes, I had dreams of my daughter’s future. Not Ivy League, but just happy and active and good grades and a choice of solid universities to choose from.
But she has always had severe depression and anxiety. In 11th grade, she missed two months of school because she couldn’t get out of bed. She can’t take normal, everyday, stress, much less anything out of the ordinary. She doesn’t have good social skills - she has a few friends but is awkward and shy. She has been in therapy in years, and that might be the reason she actually got through high school and hasn’t actually tried to kill herself.
She is of average intelligence. Math is a mystery to her. Anxiety prevents her from doing presentations in front of a class. She went to one term of college last year and came home every weekend because she was having so much trouble adjusting. She went to a local school in the spring but couldn’t take the academic pressure and had to withdraw.
Now she’s working part-time. Her first job, at age 19, because she has had so much trouble interviewing. The plan is to go back to school part time in the fall. But I’m not sure she can even handle that. I’d rather she take more time off, but she wants to go back.
Her grades range from As in English to D and F in Math and Science. I have severe doubts she will ever get through college and I’m not sure what other options could work for her. I don’t think living at home is a good thing for her, because she needs to be at least semi-independent and grow up. She doesn’t date because of low self-esteem and social skills. She sees no future for herself. She is stubborn and angry and sad and feels hopeless.
So if someone wants to look down on her crappy grades and uncertain future, they can take a long flying leap. They don’t know what we’ve gone through to even get her to high school graduation. They don’t know what we go through every day. You could expect my daughter to get As but that doesn’t mean she would have. Not everyone has the academic and emotional capabilities to do that. And no, her school did not hand out Bs for attendance. B’s were earned. Some of the hardest work she did was in classes where she ended up with a C.
She has a friend who’s father insists she major in Business. She has no interest in it. I look at the father and think - he doesn’t know how lucky he is. He has a daughter who can handle college, has lots of friends, has been working since she was 16. She should be able to choose her major and choose what she wants to do for a living.
My mom doesn’t get it. She knows a lot about what’s going on with my daughter. But she’ll always comment about the impracticality of a Psychology major or whether she’s working enough hours at her job. My god, if she can’t pass basic math and can’t handle a full-time schedule, I’m really not too worried about her major. If it took her three years to get a job, I’m not going to nitpick about whether she’s working 20 or 30 hours a week.
Sorry for the thesis. But there are a lot of parents out there who are clueless. They have no idea how lucky they are.
Agreeing with @romanigypsyeyes that quite a bit has been said already for anyone else to digest, and the OP cannot participate any longer. Closing thread.