@MaineLonghorn wow. Kudos to you for handling it as you did. It clearly made all the difference. I’d worry about him being in Beirut (yikes) but I guess you have to let go now and let him follow his passion.
Threads like this make me even more thankful than I already was to have had parents who never pressured me on grades or majors, and allowed me to find and follow my own path.
I did have swim lessons, piano lessons for a few years, went to catechism every Saturday through 8th grade, and my father signed up for a special one summer where we could play all the golf we wanted for a flat monthly fee. I was in grade school, he wanted me to love it like he did, so he dragged me out of bed at dawn every day for a month that summer to play 9 holes before he went to work. I never picked up a golf club again after that and hate golf to this day.
But by the time I got to high school, they mostly let me make my own decisions. I got involved in sports and clubs, but that was all my own choice. No one told me when to get up, go to bed, or study. I had a curfew, but it was reasonable.
Whether I went to college or not was also my own decision. They even called me once in college telling me they were worried I was pushing myself too hard, and that I didn’t need to graduate in 4 years if it was too much. I can’t imagine them caring about what anyone else thought. As long as I was happy, healthy, and well adjusted, that’s what mattered to them, and they always made sure I knew it. If they sensed I was stressed or not myself, that’s when they worried.
Sometimes, I think it might benefit some people to have to deal with a REAL problem or crisis to put things into perspective and understand what’s truly important . . . and what’s not.
At my public magnet, people who are perceived as being too focused on being popular, gregarious, and outgoing tended to be derided as “salesmen/women” or “asskissers” trying to compensate for lack of academic acumen/intelligence or as some of my post-college friends/colleagues mostly in the engineering/CS field would put it “pretty boys/girls”.
Those who were introverted or appeared to be so with high academic achievements/awards with a bit of a prickly “don’t give a damn” attitude when it came to likeability…especially when aimed at authority figures who could levy serious consequences were the ones who tended to be the most respected among my HS classmates.
Lets just say as someone who is an extrovert and a HS academic record which would cause OP and most parents here to have genuine nightmares…my peers had a conflicted view of me being a dumb slacker/clown on the one hand and a rebellious type* who got to know the dean very well during his first semester of 9th grade.
Had a personality conflict with a few jerky 9th grade teachers...including one who sent me to the dean so many times for minor infractions the dean eventually grew fed up and send me back up with a note telling said teacher to no longer send me down for such minor infractions. :D
“In summary - if Ivy does not accept your child - something may be wrong with this Ivy.”
Well, it’s a good thing that there are many great schools in this country and the Ivies are merely 8 among them. I don’t know why you continue to think the Ivies (and MIT, Stanford) are the only worthwhile colleges in this country. Others were suggested to you on other threads but for some bizarre reason you seem to think they aren’t as good.
In the last year I have watched two friends send their sons off to a state school that accepts 85 percent of the high school students who apply, where more than half of the enrolled freshmen had high school GPAs below 3.0, where more than half of the enrolled freshmen scored below 500 on all three sections of the SAT, where just 75 percent of freshmen return as sophomores, where just 38 percent of students graduate in four years, just 50 percent graduate in five years, and just 55 percent graduate in six years. The fathers are both intelligent, hard-working, well-educated senior executives at a major corporation who earn over $250,000 a year. The boys were both aimless and unmotivated C students who drifted through large better than average suburban public high schools – exactly the kind of kids who enroll as freshmen at this particular state school by the hundreds each year. Neither one survived freshman year. Now they are stocking shelves while trying to figure out their next moves. I think both fathers saw it coming but they were willing to risk the relatively small sum involved in the vain hope that something would somehow click. It is not for me to judge but my observation is that both fathers were too complacent about their sons’ lack of focus and ambition throughout their high school years. It was as if they had decided that their sons were not worth the investment of time or energy or money because they appeared to possess only average or ordinary academic ability and never demonstrated any extraordinary potential as students. I think both boys might have done better in high school and college in a private school environment, but that would have required more commitment from both the parents and the boys. I am not saying that I think private schools are inherently better than public schools or that they are the right environment for every student. But, regardless of the setting, I think complacency generally breeds complacency.
Having high educational attainment parents tends to be associated with high educational attainment, but is no guarantee of such. It can also be associated with other things like autism; obviously, there is no guarantee of that either.
I have a friend who has 3 daughters. First 2 were very good students (not by CC standards as neither went to an Ivy, public Ivy or elite LAC, but you know… mere mortal standards ;)). Neither one ever got into any trouble. Active in school. Both graduated college. Oldest has a music degree but is now in medical school. Middle daughter has a good job and is looking at grad school. Parents were very proud of both girls and patting themselves on the back for being very good parents (and by any measure, they are – even church going so we know what that means, right? :)).
Then along comes the third daughter. She has all kinds of problems. Trouble at school. Horrible grades. Depression and anxiety issues. Parents pull her out of highly rated public school and enroll her in a private school for troubled kids. Very small student to teacher ratio. A lot of hand holding. She manages to graduate (she wanted to go back to public school for senior year with her friends but parents didn’t think she could manage without the close eye of the private school so she stayed there). Wasn’t with flying colors but she was able to gain admission into a good public college. She goes but flunks out after first year. She now has found a job and is able to support herself (other than still being on parents’ medical insurance). She wants to go back to college to get a degree but parents want her to show a little more stability first. Not clear at this point but I suspect she will ultimately be fine (won’t be making the big bucks with a high powered career but will be able to support herself, get married, have a family, etc). She just needed some time to grow up and sort her life out. Living the the shadow of her older sisters probably didn’t help.
Parents now realize that maybe there is a lot more to the success of kids than just the parents. They didn’t change how they parented. They weren’t great parents who suddenly turned into bad parents when the youngest kid hit high school. Its a lot more complicated than that. And the kids themselves play a huge role.
@prospect1 and many of those kids actually get 4 year degrees and have successful careers. You left that part out.
Sure come may go to CC first but not all.
@carolinamom2boys yes. There are some, arguably many kids, who get A’s because they love to learn and thrive on it and do it for themselves, not because their parents 'expect" it of them. Those are the kids to watch! You know why you don’t hear about them? They haven’t been helicoptered, they are humble, the parents are humble and they happily go along achieving. They compete against themselves more than others and as such, aren’t as hung up on things as so many. Love those kids and the parents that enable them to be who they are all on their own!
Why? Does it matter? It is none of your business and if they were good friends, you might ask the question to them directly instead of internet strangers. I suspect the why is rhetorical to you, there is no good reason and you want that opinion validated.
1+2 does not always equal 3. No. 2 successful parents in and of itself does not indicate the children are capable. Or at least capable in the traditional established expected timeline and way. Are the odds in their favor, probably, Is it a given? No. Quite frankly that’s a creepy genetic breeding statement whether intentional or not. You do not know they are content. You assume. It is none of your business and yet you have made it so. Many teens, arguably many, struggle in HS. Hormones, peer pressure, stress, all of that can throw plans right out the window and you just want your kid to be safe and actually graduate. You do not know where that statement comes from but it isn’t invalid. My parents just wanted my brother to graduate and not get some girl in trouble. It was a valid fear. It didn’t mean that isn’t what they really wanted for him, or what he was capable of…but it was where he was at, at that point in life. Were they content? No, I am quite sure they were not. But versus the alternative? Yes, a much better option. Did they try things? Of course they did. Did they go around talking about it to judgemental acquaintances? No, probably not. Close friends, definitely.
My brother? He joined the army the minute he graduated. Waited on college till much later in life, a masters much much late, both paid for by the military. He now is a highly paid private citizen in a very public facing role working for the Army plus his full veterans and retirement benefits. Not bad for a kid they just hoped graduated.
Another brother, arguably the brightest of us all, has dinked around. Took his time getting his undergrad. Got a girl pregnant. Married her, had another kid. Bounced around jobs. Sill bouncing. Happy as a clam. Underemployed…by choice. My folks could have expected the moon from him, he would have done what he did no matter what. Perceived control is just that. Perceived. Of the other 3, 2 have masters, one does not. The one without, makes far more $ than the two that do. Success is subjective. We all are happy with our path. In my family, that matters.
As a parent, I support whatever moves my child forward and that has been different for each kid. I expect my friends to support me, and how I support my kids, and not judge me for it. My version of forward may not be my childs and I will have to reconcile myself to that and be content that they are happy, safe and self sustaining. While that may not be enough for some, at the end of the day it’s a heck of a lot.
A pulse at my kids school will get you an F. Just showing up will get you an F. Even in Band. A C in some AP classes may well be the average. Not all teachers actually use a curve and though you and some others refuse to believe it, there are kids who work really really hard to learn material, study, get tutors, try to do all the right things and struggle. A B may well be a major accomplishment in some subjects and a C a huge struggle to hit. For the miserable test taker in a class where tests are the majority of the grade, a C may be the best they can ever hope for even if they get A’s on every bit of classwork.
Some examples of highly educated parents with children whose academic performance left much to be desired by their/their children’s admission I personally know of:
An older elementary school counselor turned friend and his wife both attained undergrad and graduate degrees in education and social work from respectable/elite universities. Their only son dropped out of HS, never went back, and went through a decade and half of drug addiction and recovery, and was estranged from them despite their best efforts during K-12. The last part is likely due in part to the fact they weren’t able to conceal their disappointment in how his life turned out during his adolescent/young adult years despite their later efforts to be supportive and upbeat about the fact he was able to get back on his feet and gainfully employed. The estrangement and factors leading up to it was one of my older friend’s greatest regrets regarding his own son.
A distant great-uncle and great-aunt who were both PhDs from elite US/Chinese universities who worked in academia and for prominent international organizations had a son who barely graduated HS and struggled to graduate from a private university which was then considered a preserve for C-level rich kids. Issue here was that son wasn’t really interested in academics which factored into a bit of a conflict with parents who strongly valued academics and academic education. After graduation, worked several years in a variety of things before finding his niche in being a business entrepreneur. Despite his still strong personal disinclination towards academics, he has made a point to avoid transmitting that attitude/inclination to his kids with some success as he acknowledged it in retrospect was counterproductive.
Some of the older undergrad classmates who floundered academically to the point of being placed on academic suspension and later on with post-college life were children of college academics with PhDs at other colleges/universities and/or parents with elite MBAs/graduate degrees in highly competitive occupations such as corporate execs in firms with known household names.
An older friend who is a highly accomplished lawyer with a top 6 JD and numerous professional awards has a son around the age of some parents here who dropped out of undergrad after flunking out decades ago and is still receiving an allowance due to having serious issues maintaining employment…
This is emphatically NOT true at our local public HS.
The top 10% of each class reaches into the B+ range. There are plenty of kids getting Cs.
BTW, you didn’t “trigger” my atheist/agnostic AND church-going self with your “church going” remark. You just made it clear what kind of person you are.
I would also suggest that the OPs friends attitude about the situation may have been a defense. You don’t really know what they are or have gone through with their children.
If grades come up and one parent is lamenting an A- (obviously I have no idea of exact subject of conversation or context ) the other parent of C students are going to say what? Their kids gets C’s. Should they apologize or wring their hands in despair for you?
If my daughter got a C, I would be upset. I admit that but I certainly wouldn’t be upset if the neighbors kid got a C.
@Consolation’s kid went to the same HS that mine did. My oldest son got an 80 in 9th grade honors science. Some semesters he didn’t make honor roll. He went on to get accepted at Amherst and Wash. U., so I agree with Consolation - our high school does not grade easily!
The neighbor in the OP could have been me. Especially if I were talking to someone like @OldFashioned1. My husband and I are highly educated with professional jobs. My daughter was a solid B/B+ high school student whom many assumed had a much higher GPA. But am I going to try to justify or explain this to someone who clearly has a different worldview and incredibly judgmental as well? Nah. I’m going to go hyperbolic and toss off comments like “Oh, we’ll be happy she graduates”.I would also cheerfully go into gory details for the shock value. (D understood this approach; she knew we were fine with her).
The really funny thing is people like the OP assume my husband and I were also straight A, 1500+ SAT, PBK types at elite impressive undergrad and graduate schools. Ha! Neither one of us were stellar students throughout our education. D isn’t all that different from either parent. So, if we appear complacent, maybe we know something the OP doesn’t.
“Why would two bright, college educated, upper middle class parents be content with C’s for their healthy children? Grades anyone with a pulse can get in 2016. Doesn’t the parents academic and professional success indicate the children are capable?”
What makes you so sure that they are going to voice any discontent about it to you, an outsider whose business this is not? Again, closed doors.
Is it that you want them to say they are unhappy with their kids’ grades so you can jump in with helpful suggestions or solutions and be the rescuer?
Or is it that you want them to acknowledge that your kids are indeed better and by extension you were a better parent, pat on the back to you?
My RL friends’ kids’ college choices have ranged from Yale, Penn, Princeton, Northwestern, U of Illinois, U of Iowa, Kansas, some state directionals, and some unremarkable LACs. And so what? It’s not my job to raise other people’s kids. If they are happy and stable, that’s all that’s important to me. And I’m a fancy-school snob for my own kids, but that’s the whole point - they are my OWN kids. Other people don’t have to value those kinds of schools the way my H and I do. It’s ok.
My children are adopted. So, thankfully for everyone, there is no genetic history to live up or down to. I accept them for who they are. Both have also had health challenges that have slapped me in the face a time or two. At that point I didn’t care who got what grade or solo or award. I just wanted them to be healthy and happy. I still do.
Grades are a relatively small part of the package of raising a human being. I still remember that I got a 66 on my trig midterm in high school (and was very grateful for it!). I still managed to graduate from a top college for my major and work at several places, including a nationally known company you would recognize. To this date, no one has asked about my grades in trig, thankfully.
I have a good friend- she and her DH went to an IVY for undergrad and are both MDs. Both of her kids have struggled. One completed a 2 years school and has been under-employed for years. She is now in her early 30s and I believe has finally gotten a better opportunity on the west coast. Other child did complete a 4 year degree but works in a factory. He has had some MH issues. Both continue to be subsidized by parents. They have tastes that exceed their income, and parents fill in the gap. I wouldn’t do that , but its not my choice.
I know several families with both high attainment/well educated parents who have at least one kid who struggles big time in school. My own family included. I have 3 siblings. 3 of us did well academically, went to college, have good jobs, etc. But one of my brothers had a horrible time in school (my mom always told us that by the end of the week, my sister and I (6 and 4 years his junior) knew his spelling words for that week but my brother did not. Academics were not his thing. Wasn’t for a lack of effort on his part or my parents. Wasn’t for a lack of concern. He got into non academic problems as well (so did my other brother and sister sometimes – but never me ). I am sure there were times when my parents at least thought (may even had said it sometimes – I just do not recall) that they would be happy if he just graduates high school.
In the end, he did manage to struggle across the finish line and graduate. College was never an option for him. He went to a trade school and does HVAC install/repair for commercial/residential. Hard, physical labor. He supports himself and is doing fine. Not clear what he will do in retirement as there are physical limits to how long you can put compressors and your shoulder and climb ladders. Doesn’t make a lot to save for retirement. But again he was never going to college much less succeeding there. Same parents (was a middle kid so its not like parenting skills/effort changed). Very different results (in huge part because different kid).
@OldFashioned1 your post could have been written in 1966 by a family frienemy. Lotta glee behind small town pearl clutching about my very smart brother’s lack of accomplishment, ambition, and effort during his final years of high school.
In the half century since then, he proceeded to be the poster child of “you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink”. He did not come around, pull himself up, or ever, ever ever come close to what my parents and the community might have expected based on his family genetics, his clear intelligence, or the loving care of his family.
So what’s your point? The kid isn’t living up to YOUR expectations? Your posts say so much more about you than they do about anyone else’s child or any one else’s parenting.
