In the grand scheme of things, there are probably more undermatched students than students who worried too much about reaches. If someone goes to a school where their test scores are significantly above average, it’s possible that they did a lot of research and chose the school because it was truly the best for them, but it’s also possible that the school is near where they live and they didn’t realize there could have been other options.
I’ve got a 2300 kid and a 2140 kid. The 2300 kid is much stronger in math, but in every other respect the 2140 will give him a run for his money. He’s much more widely read, much more thoughtful about the world, really cares about people and how they feel. If Kenyon has kids like him, (and I think it does) I would not be worried about the 2300 kid being bored.
In case you were responding to me, Kenyon is a prestigious liberal arts college and the students probably put a lot of thought into going there. I’m thinking more about top-ranked students at my high school who go to the nearby commuter university with low graduation rates.
halcyon is right about undermatching. In a book-length study of public schools by William Bowen et al, Crossing the Finish Line, their research showed that undermatched students were actually less likely to finish college at a school they were overqualified for, than if they had gone to a school that better fit their profile. This was mainly due going to directionals, for example, rather the flagship they got in, or could have. Often they chose he flagship because it was closer to home, family, boyfriends, etc.
I don’t know, but I’d doubt that for some kid who gets into Chicago and Kenyon, and chooses Kenyon, the difference really matters. Both are great schools. Selection would be about fit and cost, not because she lived in Columbus vs Winnetka. This also reminds me of so many kids who come to CC, and ask can they get into Harvard or Brown with an ACT of 33 and GPA of 3.8. I just say maybe, or probably not, but don’t get deflated. It is certain you are headed for a great school.
Scattergrams for Kenyon show a good number of 2300+ applicants rejected. The acceptances seem more correlated with GPA. This is consistent with their CDS listing 5 criteria as higher importance than scores. So I certainly wouldn’t assume it is a safety just because your score on one test is well above the mean. Their acceptance decisions are holistic and depend on numerous other factors.
Note that the CC community is quite different than the general population as a whole. Most students who are competitive for HYPSM… type schools do not apply to any “elite” schools. Instead they are far more likely to apply to nothing more selective than their local state school. This is especially true in areas that are not higher income. For example, the study at https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/2013a_hoxby.pdf found that nearly half of lower income, high achieving students only applied to non-selective colleges, such as a local community college. Nearly all only applied to colleges whose median test scores were lower than their own.
I favor an approach where students make an informed decision, rather than blindly applying to elite colleges or blindly applying to local state schools. There are many factors to consider besides expected chance of admission. For some, the college with the higher chance of admission may be a better fit, may have better financial/scholarship options, may better facilitate staying in the area (including working in area after graduation), etc. For others HYPSM… may be a better fit. It depends on the student.
"My point is just that for students with top stats, these labels are being applied according to admission rates, not according to the strength of the student body. If Kenyon’s admission rate were 70% would you all still be saying, that’s a match for my hypothetical mid 2300 “reach-worthy” student? For all but the most prestige-chasing, the admission rate has zero to do with how well the student will fit in at the school. "
I think it’s pretentious as heck to think that Kenyon, a fine school by any measure, is “below” our hypothetical 2300 kid. Really now. Talk about special snowflake. I would tell such a kid and/or his parents to get over themselves already.
I can see a kid not liking Kenyon due to fit (you’ve got to be ok with being in a small town and not bright lights big city) but otherwise it’s just special snowflake to the extreme to think that you aren’t going to find any intellectual challenge there.
“It all depends on how confident and determined the student is. I know one who EDed a non-HYPS top 10 school, had an easy time there, and ended up at a HYPS professional school upon graduation. As planned.”
Aren’t people embarrassed to have the kind of mentality that the world revolves around HYPS? I know I’m embarrassed for them. It’s so obvious-striving.
I subscribe to the theory that fit matters more than rank. But that doesn’t mean that a reach school can’t be a great fit.
I’m applying early to Brown, Northeastern, and Drexel as my reach, target, and fallback, respectively. I love them all about the same, even though their educational models are dissimilar. I can see myself enjoying myself at any of these three schools.
I’m using my ED on Brown, not necessarily because ED boosts my odds (it does), but because Brown doesn’t offer EA. On the off chance I get into Brown, that’s amazing! In the likelihood that I don’t, I’ll have two great schools to choose between.
Students need a better sense of all the variables of the admissions process, and how they fit in. Some students can benefit from ED’ing a reach school. Everyone is different.
Could also be that they chose the nearby commuter school because it was all that they could (barely) afford, and then had to drop out because they ran out of money.
For most students and parents, net price is the overriding factor. But students, parents, and high school counselors may not be that well informed about costs, financial aid, and scholarships, despite the existence of net price calculators that apparently many do not know about or refuse to use. (E.g. they may assume that certain schools are more or less expensive, when that may not necessarily be the case.)
@coterie wrote
I subscribe to the theory that fit matters more than rank. But that doesn’t mean that a reach school can’t be a great fit
I agree totally, the guideline of reach/match/ safety has an implied meaning that the schools need to be fits for the student. You always see on this site that one should make sure that your safety is or are schools that you would be happy to attend if that is where you are only accepted or only can work out financially.
That philosophy is basically, do not put all your apples in the reach basket, as the process is so competitive. Obviously, one does not need to have a reach school but if there is one or two that you love why should you not reach.
Not sure why all the negativity for reaching. Rather reach and not get in than look back years later and ask what if.
With my four kids, my oldest did not apply to any reaches only looked and applied to matches/safeties. No reaches were among her choices. Was perfect in her selections. Next two applied ED to highly ranked LAC, granted had athletic hooks, were fortunate with only one application needed. Next one who knows but will advise her to follow that reach/match/safety theory. This basic philosophy seems to cover all ones basis.
Most important, fit must be a match.
@ucbalumnus That’s a good point, about them running out of money. Which would also mean they’d struggle with trying to pay for a dorm or apartment, instead of living at home. They may not be able to afford the optimal school.
@Data10 Thanks for the link the Hoxby link. And I agree with your assertion about not blindly/automatically applying to either the prestige schools or your flagship.
My D isn’t applying to a single reach school, as far as admissions. Reach schools for her stats are not a good fit for her intended majors and the other characteristics she wants in a college. I don’t think students need to apply to any reach school. Fit is the most important consideration, not the probability of getting accepted.
I haven’t read all posts, but a reach is definitely defined differently for different students.
My son had very good stats, but didn’t even apply to his dream school, probably BC I told him i simply would not pay for full price for it, and I would not take out the loans it would require for him to go there.
He had a couple of ideas, and I made a list of schools I thought he might like. Then he picked which he was interested in learning more about, and we visited a couple. He applied to 3 within the top 40, and our state flagship. He went with the one that offered him the most money, with a little coaxing from mom.
He did say, once he got in everywhere he applied that he should have applied to schools that were harder to get into.
Other kid applied to a school I thougt for sure he’d get a scholarship to, based on info from their website, but he wasn’t even admitted. They relied on class rank more than GPA and test scores at year, and we live in a very “competitive” county/school district. So, what I thought was a “safety” or “match” turned out to be wrong.
It’s getting harder and harder to predict some schools these days.
I don’t want my comments to be misconstrued. I think reach schools are great. In fact, if D had not gotten into her #1 choice (which happened to be a match rather than a reach) during ED, her list would have included a number of reach schools, as well as other matches and a safety.
I just don’t think it’s necessary to assume that every kid needs to include reach schools in their applications mix or that if, all things being equal, a reach should be the choice over a match. I also think that a carefully chosen app list that is heavy on matches and light on reaches should not be seen as indicative of a student who is unambitious or lacking in some way.
The selection of, for example, St. Olaf over WashU or Olin over MIT or Iowa State Honors over NU suggests that a student has found something at the lesser-known school or less-prestigious program that has encouraged them to take the road less traveled. To me, a choice like that indicates a certain amount of self-awareness and independent thinking that I tend to admire.
On the other hand, if you’re applying by binding Early Decision, you are faced with the choice of whether to take your one and only ED shot at a school that is a reach for you vs. one where you have a realistic chance of admission anyway and can enhance it by applying ED.
If you choose to take your ED shot at the reach school and don’t get in, you may find that when RD time rolls around, you don’t get in to the other school, either. And that too can lead to regrets.
No matter what you choose, there is the possibility of regret.
So I’ll take this one step farther - for the kids with high grades and stats, what are some schools with lower acceptance rates where the love of learning is present with most students? Where these type of kids will still find their people? Anyone have kids like this currently at schools that were “safeties” for them and they’re challenged and happy?
Love of learning is the motivator for some students of this type.
Professional ambition is the motivator for others.
It would be interesting to hear about schools where each of these wants can be satisfied.
@homerdog U-Pitt was a safety for my daughter. She was invited to their honors college with a full tuition scholarship, and was invited to interview for additional money covering room and board. After her interview she came out saying that she had just met some of the most " brilliant" people ever and that she felt very intimidated by their knowledge and accomplishments. Although she did not choose Pitt, she acknowledged that this was a safety school that would have absolutely challenged her.
@homerdog Not our family, but a close friend is at Iowa State in the Honors program. It’s been a great experience for her. She is an excellent, hard-working student who swept the English department awards at our large suburban high school, earned district academic honors, and was senior editor of both the literary magazine and the yearbook as a senior. And since she’s gone to college, I’ve watched her confidence and accomplishments grow. She’s taken a leadership position in the honors college, was asked by a professor to present at an academic conference as a freshman, and writes for a couple of campus publications. She might even have gone to a football game or two. 
She’s happy, challenged, and flourishing.