<p>My son is a Junior at one of the very good public high Schools in IL - Naperville IL and he is interested in Medical and wants to do pre-med at ivies.
His stats are-</p>
<p>He has taken so far 6 AP courses (AP CHEMISTRY, AP Lang, AP Stat, AP Bio, AP US History, AP Phy) and many Honors subjects. He has so far 4.59 / 4.0 and un weighted of about 3.92. He may be in the top 5% in his school. (has about 800 kids)</p>
<p>He has recently taken his SAT (only one time and does not want to take it again). He has </p>
<p>Critical Reading - 750
Math - 800
Writing - 700</p>
<p>His PSAT score was 228 and based on last year's perferomance, he is sure to be National Finalist.</p>
<p>ECs-</p>
<p>Volunteer at a local hospital for about 2 years.
Volunteer at a local museum for 1 year.
Volunteer at a local chruch for feeding homeless poor
Volunteer at a local home for aged for 2 years
State math team
Karate for over 5 years
Math tutor at the school
School chess team in freshman year
Shadowing doctor and volunteer work during summer holidays - overseas hospitals </p>
<p>What do you think his chances are at Yale, Princeton or Harvard or Northwetern 7 year medical (HPME - Honors Program in Medical Education).
I have been asking him to re-take his SAT but he is not willing to do it. He is very optmistic to get 34/35 in ACT though.</p>
<p>Please send me your valuable suggestions/guidance. Thanks for your help!
Regards</p>
<p>We went to one of the elite school presentation. The admission director told us that all you can do is do YOUR part - apply. They will do their job. You will get your monys worth (application fee).</p>
<p>Thanks for your response. But, I want to make sure that his grades and his SAT scores are okay to apply for ivies and HPME at Northwestern. What are the cut-off points for these schools?
Thanks</p>
<p>At Yale, Princeton or Harvard, I'd say chances are about 1 in 20. Northwestern, a little better -- maybe about 1 in 10. </p>
<p>I'm being serious: you have presented a set of numbers and EC's that are good enough to get in to any one of these schools but not in any way distinguishable from the profiles of thousands of other applicants. So I'm looking at the overall admit rate, figuring it's a tad bit harder for your son because you haven't mentioned any hooks that would give him an advantage, and throwing the basic admit ratio numbers back at you. </p>
<p>I agree with simba -- let him apply and see what happens. Then find a good set of safeties for him to apply to as well.</p>
<p>ildad, your son has some very strong credentials number's wise. Another 50 points on CR and W won't make him look much different. However, remember that there is much more to an ivy acceptance than numbers. I believe that his ECs are pretty much average compared to the students that apply to these very competitive schools. He needs to make himself stand out in his application somehow and show a passion! A long laundry list of extracurriculars won't do it. </p>
<p>This is a good time to begin thinking about unique aspects of your son that could be brought out in his applications. I do not think that he needs to retake his SATs are all. It is time to start emphasizing the rest of "the package".</p>
<p>no one can give you chances at the Ivies, sorry. Are the stats competitive, absolutely. Will they earn an interview for HPME, perhaps. (You have geographic diversification against you.) Unfortunately, the 8-year med programs tend to prefer kids who have been involved in research as opposed to volunteering at a hospital.</p>
<p>fwiw: a friend from SoCal was interviewed for HMPE last month, but he had perfect stats, 5's in every AP, and medical research on his app.</p>
<p>Calmom is right on. THe profile you've given says that he's a reasonable candidate. So are the many thousands of resonable applicants who got the thin letter this last week -- it's just how the numbers stack up. I interviewed 6 students this year for the Ivy I help recruit for. I'd say 4 of them were quite competitive and I noted as such in my report. All were rejected -- and it didn't surprise me given what I know the pool has become.</p>
<p>It seems that you've done your part. A good part of his collegiate success is already instilled in him -- not in the institution that will eventually confer his degree -- be assured of that! He seems quite successful already. What college he goes to will benefit from him -- gotta remember that.</p>
<p>And I wouldn't worry about retaking the SATs either.</p>
<p>tough call, I think that he should try and take the SAT again. because if you take it again there will almost always be an increase. Then try and think of a hook for the application, is there any legacy at the schools from the family?</p>
<p>The job shadowing in overseas hospitals sounds interesting. Does he live with relatives? Does he speak another language? The foreign experience sound like something unique that could be highlighted to make him stand out.</p>
<p>His scores and grades make him qualified for admittance to any college in the country, but from what you've written, his app will not jump out as what the adcoms like to call a "clear admit." Make sure he visits and researches colleges beyond the top 10 or 20 so he will have several good options to choose from that he will be happy to attend.</p>
<p>He's qualified, but so are a lot of other students -- far more than the very top colleges can accept.</p>
<p>My daughter is a senior in an academic magnet program where there are about 50 kids with statistics comparable to your son's. Most of these kids applied to very elite colleges -- the Ivy League, MIT, Stanford, Chicago, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, Duke, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, Washington University in St. Louis, and/or various top liberal arts colleges. Most of them used our state university as their "safety" school or applied to a few other less-selective schools without necessarily giving their choices a lot of thought.</p>
<p>Some of these students are happy right now. They got into at least one of the elite colleges that they chose. But there are also some students for whom things did not work out so well. They are now facing the prospect of going to their "safety" schools -- and they may not like those places very much. As far as I can see, there is no particular pattern to the acceptances and rejections. Some kids got into colleges where I thought they had no chance. Others, with seemingly better records (including some National Merit Finalists), will be enrolling at State U.</p>
<p>It's easy to select elite colleges that a particular student would like. It's much harder to select good safety schools. If your son decides to shoot for one or more of the elites, that's fine. But make sure he also devotes substantial time and effort to selecting good safety schools because he may end up attending one of them.</p>
<p>First, the "ivies" are 8 very different schools. Make sure you and your son understand their differences as well as each school's strengths AND weaknesses (and yes, they all have weaknesses). While your son certainly is within range to be considered at any of these schools, his best chance for success is going to come from carefully looking for the best match between what he has to offer and what each individual school is looking for. Finding that match means looking at and evaluating each school separately, not automatically grouping them all together as "Ivies" as if they were the same school.</p>
<p>better yet.....you can go to any top college thread right now and see the profiles of many students who got in and many who were declined/waitlisted. And bluebayou is correct, guaranteed medical programs at top schools look more than volunteering at hospital.</p>
<p>Yes, I think the answer is that your son certainly has the "qualifications" for the Ivies, but to about the same extent that maybe 60,000 other kids do, of whom perhaps 1/2 will apply to one or more Ivies and 1/4 will get actual Ivy acceptances. (The percentages go way down for Harvard, Yale, and Princeton.) Everyone in my son's high school class that applied to similar schools had at least similar grades and scores, and generally more focused extra-curriculars. Many of them were accepted at one of their top choices, but only two or three at Harvard, Yale, or Princeton.</p>
<p>If it's possible to discern something missing, it's leadership, and some verifiable achievement in an area where he's focused. The more competitive the college, the more important those things are. But equally or more important is what he recommenders and GC will say about him (especially compared to other students), and how articulately and passionately he presents himself in his applications.</p>
<p>So don't write him off, but be realistic. If all we know about him is what you told us, and he applied only to Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Northwestern, I think most knowledgeable people would bet on your having a very upset and disappointed kid in twelve months.</p>
<p>I'll offer my opinion -which as usual might be a bit different from other posters.</p>
<p>The short version is to ascertain HOW much your son wants an admission at an Ivy or other hyper competitive school. If his answer is ... "a lot," then he should consider the following items:</p>
<p>!. Changing his opinion about retaking the SAT.
His current scores are really, really good, but will be "in the ballpark" at highly selective schools. Spending another four hours on a Saturday should be a small price to pay for a possible improvement. This is true even if the majority of the points to "get" are in the CR and the Writing.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Working on the essays and polishing them
This advice is self-explanatory, but rarely followed. It is very important to have "most" of the essay researched and developed by Labor Day, and finished by October 1. </p></li>
<li><p>Beefing up on leadership and team work</p></li>
<li><p>Researching the best fit schools and eventually playing the ED card.
Calmom presented correct statistics but a bit incomplete. Look at the ED/SCEA approximate results:</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Brown 23%
Cornell 37%
Dartmouth 24%
Harvard 22%
Penn 29%
Princeton 26%
Yale 20%
Columbia 24%</p>
<p>Stanford 16%
MIT 11%
Duke ?? but usually stratospheric </p>
<ol>
<li>Looking for alternatives to complement your primary short list, especially if premed is important.</li>
</ol>
<p>Again, working hard and working smart to develop your niches are the keys.</p>
<p>We went just went through the process with our D who had stats similar to your son's and was also premed. She ended being accepted to 2 Ivies and MIT. She applied RD to the highly competitive PMLE at Brown, where she thought to have a good shot and was rejected. In total she applied to 18 colleges: was accepted to 8, waitlisted at 4 and rejected at 6. Every school was a top 25 university or LAC and therefore a reach for nearly everybody. Even schools like Middlebury had over 7,000 applicants this year for less than 500 spots.</p>
<p>I personally don't think that retaking the SAT will improve your son's chances. Above 2250, scores don't really matter and with a 228 PSAT your son obviously tests well. </p>
<p>For our D's high school relative rank seemed more important than raw GPA. If your S is top 5% that may mean that up to 40 kids are ahead of him in his class. If a whole bunch of kids apply to the same Ivy, unless you have a hook, the college often takes the highest ranked kids first. Even if the school does not officially rank, the college can estimate rank based on GPA. Yale, for instance, picked off the val and sal at D's school, plus one legacy and that was it. Harvard picked an athlete and Princeton a musician/composer. Most other Ivies picked students in the top 2% of D's high school, unless the kid has some obvious hook. It may also be a bad idea to apply to a particular Ivy, if your school has lots of legacies applying at the same time that year. In a school of 800 there is bound to be a substantial number, and they are hard to beat even with top grades. There is still a HUGE advantage at some Ivies to applying early (particularly ED). The kids that got in early into Ivies at D's school would not have had a chance RD with acceptance rates in the 5% range. Even the "safety" Ivies like Cornell or Penn have become very tough to get into RD. </p>
<p>Your son's ECs don't show any significant commitment to anything particular. My daughter was helped by having some research published in a national journal and a strong passion for the arts (but no awards). Demonstrating some passion for something will be important in the essays to stand out. The college wants to know your S has a life outside of school.</p>
<p>For some schools, particulalry small ones, it seemed to have helped that D had visited multiple times, attended classes and met profs in her intended area of study. She could then refer to these visits in the "Why our college?" section of the application. Other schools did not seem to care. </p>
<p>The interview was also very important for some colleges that have emphasis on "character" or "leadership". Most schools will list the factors that are important to them in their CDS reports. We found these factors to be generally fairly accurate.</p>
<p>Another thing your son may want to consider is applying to some schools outside the region in which he lives.</p>
<p>We're in Maryland. The kids at my daughter's school had greater success applying to Northwestern and Chicago than to Johns Hopkins and Georgetown. Perhaps a kid from the Midwest would have the opposite experience. Your son might want to look into some of the top schools in the South, too (Duke, Emory, Vanderbilt, Rice, etc.).</p>
<p>ildad;
1. The stats are good enough--but no sense taking the ACT. Take the SAT instead and try to boost the other two scores (the schools only look at the highest in each category). 1450 is the usual threshold for the CR/M score at the Ivies. Ask you GC if you can see the scattergrams at your school. Those charts should show whether your son's status puts him in the running. If his school scattergrams show that he is not one of the top students in the running--then don't drink the kool-aid. His chances of beating his school's scattergrams are very very small. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Do you need money? If so, consider dropping your intense focus on the Ivies. Not a few students get in but find they cannot afford it. Sometimes the aid offered just isn't enough--or it leaves your child with too big a debt burden.</p></li>
<li><p>Admissions committees are experienced and insightful. They know what they are looking for and students usually can't 'fake' those qualifications. Beyond a student who can easily do the work, the top schools want passionate kids who are likely to contribute something substantial to wider society. This attribute is assessed through the essay, the ECs and the admission portfolio--if the student has one.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>All of the above should show:</p>
<ol>
<li> Independent Drive (mom and dad didn't arrange it)</li>
<li> Talent</li>
<li> The ability to project himself and his work into the wider world; ie beyond high school.</li>
</ol>
<p>I would say if you were to apply not just one, but perhaps 2-4 ivy colleges, I think he should get in. My friend's stats:
2190 SAT total, 1st place in chess competition, president of math team, key club, national honors society. </p>
<p>Also, as a junior he was taking Differential equations and Physics 3, and other AP classes. He has straight A's. </p>
<p>Got rejected out of yale, Harvard, and MIT. </p>
<p>However, Dartmouth not only accepted him, but gave him a 27,000 dollar scholarship!! UNH gave him full!</p>
<p>Based on your son's performance, I think he has a pretty good chance to get into an ivy school. Your son's SAT score is pretty impressive. Matt also got a 800 Math but lower on the reading and writing. Your son also has a little bit more of extra curriculars. All I can say is, there is definitly a CHANCE. Remember the SAT II's as well. Ivies usually say they want 3-4, maybe 5 I believe. And also, make sure he gets 800's on them. At least 740.</p>