<p>That's why it is also irresponsible to dispense one-size-fits-all advice without knowing the person or the situation. Is the SAT taken for admission, a scholarship, employment at a superselective institution, are the scores likely to change in dramatically good or bad ways? These and other factors affecting "likelihood and gravity" are unknown without further information that differs from case to case.</p>
<p>Regarding the easy dismissal of statement "admission rate increases linearly with SAT results", I'd love to quote my dearest CC sparring partner by repeating "It always amazes me that people who want to go to elite colleges have such a fundamental misunderstanding of math and probability."</p>
<p>Inasmuch as the dismissive "correlation is not causation" is as ubiquitous on College Confidential hate letters to the College Board, one could still learn from the statistics. </p>
<p>However, to change subjects for a second, allow me to introduce a different item in this debate: When it comes to admissions, what would be statistical variance between a valedictorian and a top 2% student, and then between a top 5% and a student ranked in the top 5%/top10% range. The question is simple? Does it make a difference, or would it be in the same range as the difference between a 2250 SAT and a 2350-2400 score?</p>
<p>For what it is worth, despite the glaring absence of broken down statistics for SAT or use of ranking, I WILL provide verifiable and conclusive examples from two schools. </p>
<p>Wanna compare your hunches with real numbers?</p>
<p>If the long term goal is med school, perhaps serious consideration should be given to a lower-ranked school. Good friend of mine interviews students for a top-ranked med school (non-ivy). She said they often take high-performing students from state universities over average-performing kids from top ranked colleges.</p>
<p>On the retaking-the-SAT debate: I think the OP son has great SATs and shouldn't retake. Here's my perspective:</p>
<p>The admissions person reads his application, essays, recs, etc. Given that most colleges have a holistic admissions approach, I find it hard to believe that these SAT scores would be the sole reason to deny. Most likely, this kid would be denied for all the reasons already pointed out -- lack of leadership, no evidence of a deep interest in a particular activity. The application goes in the Deny pile.</p>
<p>But wait! In rushes the eager student intern, waving a piece of paper from the College Board. "Ilson's new SATs just came in!" she exclaims.</p>
<p>Do you really think that a bump of some extra points will move that kid's application from the Deny pile to the Accept pile? Given that the top schools are almost proud to announce the number of 2400 scorers they deny, I really doubt that an increase from a 1550 CR+M is going to make the difference in admission. (I think that schools are still not weighing the writing score as heavily as the others.)</p>
<p>Now, if there are specific scholarships this kid is interested in that requires higher than a 1550/2250 SAT score, then it might be worth retaking. But I would imagine most colleges would rather see this kid do something more productive than studying for the SAT.</p>
<p>As for the OP original question -- Your kid definitely has the stats to indicate that he could succeed at any top college. Whether he gets in, none of us knows. So I'll repeat what other posters have said -- make sure you develop a strong list of colleges. And make sure that your kid's ego does not depend on getting an acceptance to one of these elite schools. Make sure that he would be as happy with an acceptance from Rice or Vanderbilt or CMU or Tulane or Univ. of Delaware. Let him know that wherever he gets in and wherever he goes, he'll do great.</p>
<p>To Ildad: Naperville schools, Central North and Nequa (is that in the district?) are all good and one thing to consider is how he looks compared to the others in the school who are applying to the same coleges. The counselor letter and recommends can become important. I think a secondrtry at the SAT would not hurt. Work on improving the one section. A lot of schools superscore. ACT is different and some kids do better. It can help for merit at some places. Northwestern program is very tough to get into. Stats of those accepted are impressive. As others have posted it is not just about the list of EC's but how they fit into the overall life of the student. How long of committment etc? A couple good ones that tie into his passions and to his essays and define him as a person are what is needed. My opinion is that the main aspects of what makes a good candidate have already been in place by the end of junior year. Trying to add a bunch of things now can look like window dressing. Essays are critcial. Here the key is to make sure they are in the student's own voice and that insight into the character, dreams, and, heart of the student are illustrated. I think too many essays sound contrived and read like the student is writing what he thinks the committee wants. Make sure if you see the essays you think they really paint a picture of you child and sound like him. Finally, make sure the colleges are ones your kid really wants to attend, not just a list of top ranked schools. Knowing why you want to go to a place, what you can bring to the school, and what tit can offer helps to generate the passion necessary for a good app package. My two cents. (Worked for my kids)</p>
<p>as others have noted, I'd recommend against further testing. A 34 ACT converts into a 1520 SAT, so your S is going backward. A 35 converts into a 1580, which, obviously, is wonderful score. However, statistically, it is no different than a 1550. One extra correct bubble will not change any admission decision.</p>
<p>ildad--if your son is truly interested in premed, I would recommend you stay away from the ivies and focus on colleges with a good track record of placing kids in med schools. Med school is a long, expensive haul and paying up for an ivy UNDERGRADUATE degree just isn't worth it IMHO. Look at places like Whitman, Carleton, Grinnell that have reputations as feeders for graduate programs.</p>
<p>I will also be frank with you that your son's track record, while excellent, looks amazingly like the records of all of the kids who were rejected this year from Ivy and Ivy-like schools. The ONLY kids we knew who got in had stats like your sons AND an amazing commitment to something that transcended high school. For example: rower on a nationally ranked crew team admitted to MIT; kid with higher stats and school level leadership positions was rejected, girl on a nationally ranked dance team and state ranked musician was accepted to an ivy; valedictorian with no state or national level competitions was waitlisted.</p>
<p>It's truly crazy out there and the best thing you can do for your son is pick up a copy of "The Intelligent Investor" and apply the lessons taught in that book to selecting a place of higher education for your son. Look for the undervalued asset and apply there.</p>
<p>ildad, Mombot gave you good advice. You may also want to find out the passing rate of organic chemistry class from each school. Many pre-meds change their option after failing such course. To stand out in pre-med students from top school may be harder than places like Whitman, Carleton, Grinnell.</p>
<p>I third what mombat and inverse point out. Carleton has excellent reputation for premed.</p>
<p>The ACT, taken this month, is required for Illinois students, so the OP's son has time to decide if he needs to retake a test in fall, and which test it should be. He needs to take SAT2's in May or June.</p>
<p>I agree with the other posters that your son is competitive for the ivy schools you've suggested, but will not be among the strongest applicants. Northwestern is a little less competitive, but the program you are looking at (HPME) is among the most competitive in the country, perhaps even more difficult to get into than Harvard. </p>
<p>Also, the EA/ED "boost" some suggested for Harvard and Princeton is moot, as these schools have eliminated their EA/ED programs beginning next year.</p>
<p>So, your son must work at finding a range of match and low-reach schools. These are the most important selections in the college-finding process, because he will most likely end up at one of them. Your college counseling at Naperville should be excellent; make an appointment and be sure to take note of what is said. The HS counselor will know where kids with your son's statistics have had success over the last few years. Create a list of 20-30 possible colleges, and have your son research them over the summer. He should have a list of about 10 by the fall, with a much better idea of what he wants and what each school has to offer. This is HIS job, not yours. </p>
<p>My suggestions for low reach schools with great pre-med options: WashU in St. Louis, Northwestern (not HPME) Cornell, Rice, Johns Hopkins.</p>
<p>Match schools: Emory, Carleton, University of Michigan.</p>
<p>If you are looking for financial aid and/or merit money, many of the choices will change.</p>
<p>Cornell, Johns Hopkins, WashU and Northwestern were besieged with applications this year though.</p>
<p>After going through this experience I would advise families to quit looking at the same 25 schools everybody is chasing and focus on finding schools with lower profiles with excellent reputations for teaching. Look at placement in graduate schools, teaching awards, and an upward trend of selectivity. Try to catch a school before it breaks out and becomes one of the "hottest." Find places that give undergrads some kind of out of the box experience that will differentiate them when the same hordes go pouring into the graduate schools four years from now.</p>
<p>If your son really wants med school you should be able to find out which schools feed your med school. I also believe WSJ publishes a list of top feeders to law, graduate and med schools--you can probably google around and find it somewhere.</p>
<p>Ildad, my oldest three have no interest in a medical profession whatsoever, but some of my nephews are currently in undergrad/med school programs at mid level schools. Your son should apply to those ivies he feels fit his needs, but his chances are no better than anyone elses, so he needs to spend more time researching other schools and find some with a guaranteed med school admittance (assumes he maintains the GPA and other requirements). Just because it's an ivy doesn't mean it's better (and I say this having one at P). The knowledge of that med school admittance upon entering college is invaluable and allows the kids to live a little and not stress so much, which is as important as the education they get during these last years before becoming full fledged adults.</p>
<p>^^^^^^
Mombot raises a <em>very</em> good point, especially if your kid is interested in premed. The quality of teaching one receives is vital at the undergraduate level...particularly if a student wishes to be well-prepared for graduate or professional school. The LACs to a wonderful job in this regard, especially those that provide their students with research opportunities as well. </p>
<p>However, I disagree with Mombot's assertion that the Ivies should be avoided if your kid is interested in premed. True, some of the more research-oriented Ivies and other elites aren't doing the best they could teaching-wise, but Dartmouth, Princeton, and Brown are known for their excellent undergraduate programs. US News actually used to do a ranking of "quality of undergraduate teaching" (take that for what you will...their rankings are rather suspect in many admissions folks' opinions...) and Brown and Dartmouth were the top of the list year after year. These two, in particular, also have solid med schools...</p>
<p>Yes, maybe Dartmouth's is 100 percet need based, but Matt is exactly poor. He lives in Windham, the richest city in NH. I am sure that there are a lot more people who are poorer than him. Also, 100 percent need based. I do not understand that. Your saying that if a kid has a 0 GPA, and 600 SAT and no other activities, he could get in just because he needs more money than others?? Obviously, Dartmouth would look at a person's grade and scores first before giving them any financial aid/merit scholarship. And the point is not that he got a scholarship. The point is that he got in with the grades and scores he had. The scholarship was just a plus. If he got a scholarship with those scores, to get in without a scholarship, you wouldn't even need to have as much as Matt.</p>
<p>in previous post-** Matt is notexactly poor. Correction</p>
<p>No, just that Dartmouth is committed to giving kids who need money the money. You still have to be qualified to get in. They don't try to lure better students by giving them more money. Your friend is probably poorer than you realize.</p>
<p>After going through this experience I would advise families to quit looking at the same 25 schools everybody is chasing and focus on finding schools with lower profiles with excellent reputations for teaching.>></p>
<p>Mombot, this is the most astute advice I have ever read about college planning. Thank you for it.</p>
<p>To the OP--Case Western has a PPSP (Pre-professional Scholars Program) that I have not seen mentioned in the list of good non-Ivy pre-med school possibilities. Case is an example of a school with a fine reputation that is usually not on a lot of people's radar, and also gives great scholarships to students with your son's stats.</p>
<p>I like a lot of what Mombot says, but there are some things that need to be questioned. </p>
<p>Carleton, for instance, is wonderful, but it is not necessarily easier to get into or to stand out at than some of the Ivies. At least among the kids I know, the ones who have gone to Carleton in recent years have been top performers, and kids who weren't top performers didn't get in.</p>
<p>The Wall St. Journal's list of top feeders to professional schools was a one-off semi-serious project. You don't need to look it up. What was notable about it was how perfectly -- far, far more perfectly than USNWR -- it replicated the most conventional assessment of prestige: HYPS, MIT, Ivies, SWAMP. The only remotely surprising thing I remember is that Pomona was first or second among LACs.</p>
<p>Also, the best-known and best-regarded colleges are best-known and best-regarded because they do a terrific job, year in and year out. Not that other schools don't also do a terrific job. But I don't think there is a need to look for out-of-the-box out-of-body experiences on the fringes. HYPS etc. will continue to produce dynamite med school candidates. And notwithstanding the demographic bulge that will follow our children to graduate school, there will be no demographic bulge in the number of graduates from top colleges.</p>
<p>I'll just repeat what I wrote in my first post:</p>
<ol>
<li>Looking for alternatives to complement your primary short list, especially if premed is important.</li>
</ol>
<p>Again, working hard and working smart to develop your niches are the keys.</p>