Doability?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>Hi! I hope this isn't a bad place to post this question...</p>

<p>I am interested doing a Piano Performance/Math dual degree in college, and, of course, I'm looking at some exciting schools that offer this opportunity, including Johns Hopkins/Peabody. From what I understand, JHU gives its students a huge workload, which I presume would make an already grueling dual degree track even more difficult.</p>

<p>I guess I'm just wondering if there are any College Confidential users with have experience in the JHU/Peabody dual degree who could discuss the doability and usual workload this level of study entails. Any help would be appreciated.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

<p>I'll post this in the JHU forum as well...</p>

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<p>Question? Are you interested in math as a hobby/to complement or use in some career in your future? Or are you interested in mathematics and possibly pursuing a graduate degree in math? Are you interested in applied mathematics or pure mathematics? Or are you interested in the intersection of math and music and possibly exploring things like generative music (In which case according to my middle son Stanford or Oberlin might be the right place). Are you interested in composing or becoming a performer? Is math a back-up plan or an area of serious interest? How many hours do you see yourself practicing a day? </p>

<p>Remember just because you focus on mathematics in college, does not mean that you have to abandon your interest in music. And if you were to attend conservatory, like my youngest is about to do, you can always take classes at a university in mathematics and continue your interest in the subject. FYI I have one son who is a math major but who started off college very behind in mathematics because of illness during his HS years. One thing about applied math is that it is possible to learn it outside the classroom if you are so inclined. He has self-taught himself a huge amount using MIT’s Open Courseware material and online videos. </p>

<p>One of my boy’s heroes is the guitar player for Queen, Brian May, who went back to school later in life and is now a professor of cosmology. Remember nothing is set in stone. Also one of the lead engineers for NASA’s Opportunity spent a year attending Berklee before becoming a physics major.</p>

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<p>While I’m not a Hopkins student, I did apply for their double degree program, so perhaps I can add some related (although not strictly on topic) information. The Hopkins/Peabody double workload is intense, but IMO, it’s more difficult to make it into the program in the first place.</p>

<p>The Double Degree programs requires that you be apply to, and be accepted to both Johns Hopkins and Peabody, and then complete a separate third application for the double degree program. As I understand it, the double degree program only accepts a small number of applicants each year, regardless of the level of qualifications of excluded students. This means that it is not only possible, but in fact likely that you could be accepted to Johns Hopkins and Peabody, but be rejected from the double degree program, as I and another classmate from my high school both were.</p>

<p>By all means apply to Hopkins/Peabody, but consider some other double degree options where the two schools aren’t so isolated. Oberlin, as StacJip mentioned, is a good choice, and I currently attend Northwestern, which has a very manageable double degree program.</p>

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<p>@StacJip:</p>

<p>Music is my primary love, but I am also very interested in mathematics. I mainly am drawn to these double degree programs because it would give me mobility after graduation, depending on how I felt about my occupational prospects in either field (i.e., I could get a job or go to grad school in either field). My goal is to eventually focus on the music and become a concert pianist, but I understand that this is not necessarily practical to only do music in college, in case it doesn’t work out. I guess you could say math would be my back-up plan, and, in that case, I guess I would have to go to grad school for math. Right now, I’m leaning toward applied mathematics, but I frequently oscillate between the two choices, because I find them both interesting.</p>

<p>I am also interested in the compositional aspect of music and its intersection with math, but I think I should focus on music performance if I were to attend a music school. I love composition and I’ve written a few short pieces and am contemplating beginning a larger work sooner than later, but I like the performance aspect of music more, and I think I’m probably better at it. Maybe I could take some composition classes for fun?</p>

<p>As for practice, I’ll practice as much as I can. I’m not sure what the workload will be like in college, but I presume it’s pretty hefty. Over the summer, I usually practice around six hours a day, but I’m unable to maintain that kind of practice during the school year at my academic-oriented high school. During the school year, I usually practice less than an hour a day (more like half an hour a day). I know, I need to work on that. I guess what I’m trying to say is that, if I have time for seven hours a day, I’ll probably do seven hours. But if I don’t have that kind of free time, I’ll have to do less and figure out some way to compensate for that. Any recommendations?</p>

<p>Your son’s story is very inspirational. Good luck to him, because he deserves it.</p>

<p>I did not know that about Brian May or the NASA engineer from Berklee, but both stories are very interesting. You seem to be a wealth of information!</p>

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<p>My son will be entering Oberlin Conservatory as a first year composition major. Most of his non-conservatory classes will be in math. He chose not to do the five dual degree program since he did not want to be burdened with the distribution requirements of the college. While his plan now is to pursue a Ph.D/DMA in Composition and a masters in conducting, he will have enough math for grad school if he decided to go that way.</p>

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<p>moustache,
The reason I know so much about this subject is that it hits pretty close to home. All three of my kids have interest in the sciences and the creative arts. I have been interested in the math and visual art all my life. </p>

<p>I know that many adults coach kids like you, who are passionate about music to “have a back-up plan”. But personally I think that is silly. If you don’t throw yourself into something that you love and devote 100% to it, how will you ever know if it is right for you or if you have what it takes to fulfill your dream. The discipline of music helps the brain and teaches you how to learn. It is not like the math is going to go anywhere. Sure sometimes math skills get rusty but there are so many on-line resources these days you can easily spend some time and brush up on them if you decide to switch directions. Maybe you will be a year or two behind. But what does that matter in the long run? If you do switch tracks to being a math major you will know that you will eventually be employable and things will all work out in the end.** </p>

<p>That being said, I don’t know how your brain works. I do know of several people who have done the music-science/math thing through the joint Harvard/NEC program. These people are exceptionally smart and acquire new information and skills easily. Most people have to work a lot harder than they to learn the same information. A student from my son’s prep school is heading off to do a joint program with Princeton and Juilliard. These are exceptional students. If this is you then definitely look into these joint programs.</p>

<p>**My daughter attended NYU’s Tisch School for the arts to do theater. She is now a graduate student pursuing a Nurse Practitioner’s degree. She did end up spending an extra year in college to complete her prerequisites. But she has no regrets. She knows that she made this choice without abandoning a dream she once had and the skills she did gain by being an actress will and have served her well when dealing with patients and working in hospitals.</p>

<p>One of my closest friends is a brilliant pianist. He was Suma-Cum Laude in pure mathematics at Harvard. During that time he studied with a teacher who was at NEC who he stayed in touch with until the teacher passed away a few years ago. Harvard did not yet have a formal joint degree with NEC like it does now. Rumor has it that he was admitted to Juilliard for graduate school. But his mother was worried about his “back-up plan” and made him attend Harvard Law School. Result: A middle age man who made tons of money but who is not particularly happy with his life and the things he abandoned along the way. The happiest I have seen him lately was when he was taken a Continuing Education class at Juillard and working on his music. </p>

<p>Remember going to college is not a destination point but a starting point. And learning does not end after you complete four years and have a degree. Too many people live their lives in fear of not being on some track to something. Instead follow your heart and be confident in your ability to learn and change and grow over time. You will not be sorry.</p>

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<p>Lovely post StacJip.</p>

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<p>It seems to me that the JHU/Peabody double major would be tough because of logistics. Peabody is downtown and JHU is not. Just traveling back and forth between the two campuses seems overwhelming to me without even factoring in the workload.</p>

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<p>It is possible to do music and another degree at many places, but it isn’t going to be easy. BM degrees require a lot of time, in lessons, practicing, ensembles and so forth (I can’t talk specifically about the piano). The thing to keep in mind is you have options, a lot more then a dual degree, and also don’t underestimate what a music performance degree will take in terms of time…here is a summary, at the very least, to give you an idea (others have already commented on some of them).</p>

<p>-Joint degree programs, like Peabody/JHS, Harvard/NEC… incredibly hard to get into, they don’t exactly make it easy (I think Tufts has a program with NEC as well)…keep in mind that just getting into programs like NEC and Peabody on piano are going to be incredibly difficult (more on that in a second)…I also hear the schools do little to make it easy on these students, that arranging schedules and such can be fraught with all kinds of difficulties</p>

<p>-So called ‘exchange programs’ (Juilliard/Columbia has one, Princeton does I believe), this is where students at the university can take lessons (and i believe do chamber) at Juilliard, and there are other ones. Note, I am not talking about the Juilliard/Columbia program (I think they call that the joint program), where someone in the exchange program can apply, finish their UG at Columbia then get their MM at Juilliard.</p>

<p>Basically the student studies with a teacher at juilliard while getting their UG at the university, and it is covered by tuition (as opposed to paying for private lessons, and though I believe it is more then standard tuition alone, wiill be cheaper then private lessons would be I would guess)</p>

<p>-Studying privately with a top teacher while going to school. Lots of people have done this, where you go to a university and get your academic degree, and study privately. Kids have done this and gone to music school as a masters. The student could do chamber and orchestra at the university as a non major,which may not be on the level of a conservatory program, but still would be something (with piano, it is already a bit different, though they obviously do ensemble with sonatas and/or chamber).</p>

<p>Will cost you more, since private lessons are expensive and you would still have to practice a lot, but would be more flexible then a joint degree program.</p>

<p>-Dual degree programs/dual major: Lumping these together, though these are different as some people have pointed out. For example, Bard requires its conservatory students to get a second degree (it is a 5 year program), so you could get a BM in piano and a BA/BS in math. Or you could dual major at a place like Indiana or Oberlin (though I hear they don’t necessarily encourage this at a lot of schools, Rice comes to mind). </p>

<p>Again, like with a joint program, this is going to be rough sledding, because you will be doing the BM requirements, plus core academic and major classes. It is possible to do it, kids have, but it will be tough to do it all (and may end up taking you 5 years to do it). </p>

<p>-Get a BM, then get a masters in something else if you decide not to do music. This might mean you need to take some prerequisite courses to get into the masters program (or take them as part of the masters), but you do have this as an option, depending on the program (for example, I knew people who got masters in computer science who had business undergraduate degrees). People have gone on to med school after a BM, they need to take the pre med courses before applying, for example.</p>

<p>This has the plus that you can concentrate on music UG, the downside is you might have to do some work before going into a masters program to fill in gaps…</p>

<p>In a sense you already see what the problems with getting multiple degrees is going to be, in your experience in high school. You said that when school starts your practice time dwindles down to very little (and that is not uncommon; my son is in a top level high school music prep program, and in there you can tell the kids heading into music from those heading into academic college, the kids heading into academic college, because of the demands of AP classes and the need to maintain top academic grades, do well on the SAT and so forth, show a decided drop off in their playing or a stagnation, because they can’t devote as much time to practicing as they once did). It is the same with a BM degree, it demands a lot, and in music programs you need to maintain a certain level on the juries.</p>

<p>I think what you do also might be determined by what level you are playing on at this point, the Piano is hypercompetitive, to say the least, so your playing level at time of audition may very well determine what you do and how you do it:). The nice part is you do have options, every path has its plusses and minuses.</p>

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<p>Oberlin has a five year dual degree option that requires you be admitted to the conservatory and the college. The difference with Bard is that the five year dual degree program is required at Bard. With Oberlin you can do that, or just the conservatory and focus your courses in the college as my son is doing, or apply as a dual major BA (math/musical studies) within the college. The NEC program with Harvard is a AB at Harvard and an MM at NEC while the NEC/Tufts is BM/BA. Don’t know why Harvard and the University of Chicago do the AB thing.</p>

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<p>My son (violist) is looking at some joint programs (Tufts/NEC,Columbia/Julliard,etc.) Does anyone know if these types of programs are twice as expensive as, say, getting a double major at one single school. Even though its a joint program, it is still 2 separate schools…</p>

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<p>Tufts/NEC is a 5 year program so you end up paying for an extra year.</p>

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<p>Tuition for Tufts/NEC is based on Tufts’ tuition rates and all financial aid is through Tufts.</p>

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<p>OP, lots of great advice here.
Stacjip, <em>double like</em> on this:

</p>