<p>Yes, it means quite a bit in their own little narcissistic heads. Have fun with your precious, worthless piece of paper.</p>
<p>GPA400, if what you’re saying is true, and the piece of paper truly is worthless, then should be no problem with tightening the transfer admissions rules, even if that means that fewer transfer students might choose not to matriculate, or even if it means that fewer transfer students are admitted in the first place. After all, if the piece of paper truly is worthless, then there is no real reason for transfer students to want to study at Berkeley in the first place, and so if they don’t, then that’s no loss, for, as you said, what they would be losing isn’t worth anything anyway. So who cares, right? Let them transfer to some other school. </p>
<p>Otherwise, if transfer students do consider Berkeley to be important enough to want to come, then there must be a reason a why.</p>
<p>@gpa400</p>
<p>So now you are a [Insert high profile firm] recruiter?</p>
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<p>“Anything” is just a dramatic use of terminology. The point that a good resume and actual interview skills are crucial is well-taken, but the point that a degree should be awarded with a degree of integrity is also important.</p>
<p>i feel very repulsed by gpa400 for some reason. am i alone?</p>
<p>Sakky, you are providing solutions to a problem that may not even exist. First, you must prove the first sentence in the OP’s original claim.</p>
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<p>If the problem doesn’t exist, then that only proves my point further. After all, if the OP is wrong, and the transfers truly are not subpar, then they will have no problems whatsoever in passing the weeder courses/exams. So why not have them do so? What’s the problem? Heck, doing so would potentially bolster them, as they would be able to rack up a bunch of easy Berkeley A’s which would surely look good on their transcript.</p>
<p>But what if transfers couldn’t do well on the weeders, as the OP implied? Then that begs the question of why the freshman-admits should be forced to take those weeders.</p>
<p>But, either way, you have a problem. Either the transfers are highly qualified - in which case they should have no problem in taking the same weeder exams that the freshman-admits are forced to take - or they’re not, in which case the freshman-admits should not be forced to take those weeders either. Gpa400, I’m fine arguing either way, but you need to pick your poison.</p>
<p>The topic of weeders is a red herring and an appeal to emotion (fairness) that does not address the original issue.</p>
<p>Well the original point of this thread was already misguided, gpa400 - transfers and frosh are not assessed properly, resulting in subpar admits. The large issue is that there are standard things you can do to improve your chances which have little to do with actual preparation for Berkeley academics. The real question is if there is a mechanism to change this.</p>
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<p>Sure it does - as long as certain people are receiving special treatment, or at least are perceived as being so, then there will always be a lingering suspicion that those receiving that special treatment are subpar which is why they are receiving that treatment. The best way to combat that suspicion is therefore to abolish that special treatment.</p>
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<li>It is not special treatment - it is just a different path one chose based on what he or she thought was the best decision at the time. You wouldn’t consider someone who makes a better salary than you to be receiving special treatment, just because he or she chose a wiser career path in their life than you did.</li>
<li>Those people are narcissistic dumb a sses - who think they are sub-par just because they made a different life decision.</li>
<li>Are you signing a petition for reform? It is better to discuss this with administration if there really is a problem (which actually doesn’t exist) since nothing said here will matter anyway.</li>
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<p>The transfers chose a different path, this is true. The question is in making sure the requirements both transfers and frosh admits have to undergo are very comparable. And the question is to make admissions standards so that the most academically worthy students are admitted over the less worthy ones. </p>
<p>Again, as I’ve posted before on this thread, I know transfers who are amazing students, and go far above and beyond any petty discussion. They <em>themselves</em> agree that the admissions system is not ideal at the moment. Not only do subpar transfers get in, but at times, over more qualified transfers. </p>
<p>Making these guys undergo some test of their real qualification that is based on fundamental Berkeley courses (e.g. an exam) is a perfectly logical addition. </p>
<p>Life choices aside, we need a good way of making sure the right people are being admitted.</p>
<p>“Best decision” arguably has a lot to do with money. Using Statfinder (again, yes I like this tool), you can see that the average parental income for freshmen hovers around $90,000 (inflation-adjusted) and the average parental income for transfers is around $65,000 or so - roughly 30% less. </p>
<p>Another issue, the average GPA for freshmen entering in 2007 after their sophomore year is around 3.26 and the transfer GPA in the same year hovers around 3.75-3.80. In the end though, everyone ends up with around the same average GPA at graduation (3.3 for both groups). </p>
<p>I think the fact that transfer students (on average) come to Berkeley often unaccustomed to the difficulty that Berkeley offers does partially compensate for the fact that they do not take the weeder courses in general, and in the end, everyone ends up roughly at the same GPA level.</p>
<p>Why would a transfer student take a weeder course? That makes no sense unless the transfer changes majors or certain courses do not transfer. Unlike freshmen admits, transfer students declare a major on their application and when admitted, they are admitted into that program. The heads of the particular department look over the transfer student’s transcript to determine the level of acceptable (previous) college coursework and how that translates into what is going on at UCB. Chances are, transfer students have either taken weeder courses at their previous college or demonstrate (usually through advanced courses) that they already possess the skill(s) and/or desire for a particular major.</p>
<p>Like I said before, transfers -just like freshmen- are admitted for a reason, and that reason is generally how much of a fit a person is for the particular school. This is not a purely academic decision, as the ratio also includes what kind of student the admit will be on campus, what this person would add to the campus (and what kind of alum they would be, too $$$), and what they will personally get out of the whole process. </p>
<p>I wouldn’t sweat it, though. It is not worth the headache to bug yourself out over it. Are there not sub-par freshmen admits? Yes, of course there are. But admitting that would be admitting that you met that same criteria. It is easy to condescend transfers because they enter the school trough a different process, and thus must be different themselves. Keep in mind that despite your feelings on this, transfer admissions will always be more competitive than freshman admissions.</p>
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<p>Actually - that’s exactly what I (and most other people) would think, particularly if the higher salary is perceived to be undeserved. Just consider the current political rancor regarding investment banking bonuses - bankers are back to making million dollar bonuses while the rest of the country suffers from 10% unemployment, particularly as nobody - not even the bankers themselves - really seems to be able to articulate exactly what social value bankers actually provide to deserve that sort of special treatment. </p>
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<p>Secondly, the transfers (mostly) didn’t make a ‘different life decisions’: the vast majority of them were not admitted to Berkeley as freshman, or didn’t even apply because they wouldn’t have been admitted. Heck, many of them probably weren’t even UC-eligible at the time. Hence, no ‘decision’ was made: they simply chose the only path available to them.</p>
<p>I have no problem with providing people with second chances. What I do have a problem is providing people with second chances accompanied with special treatment. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if the transfers truly are qualified, then why can’t they take the weeder exams (or an equivalent placement exam)? What are they scared of? </p>
<p>All of this resistance only serves to heighten people’s suspicions that the transfers are not actually qualified and that is why they don’t want to be subject to the same standards as the freshman-admits are. </p>
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<p>The same could be said for any thread on CC: nothing directly will ever happen on any thread.</p>
<p>But what can happen is that cc readers can be galvanized to demand reform. That’s far better than nothing. If this thread didn’t exist, then, truly, nothing will happen. A small chance of reform is still better than no chance at all.</p>
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<p>And that’s precisely why the system is unfair. If the transfers are not accustomed to Berkeley’s difficulty, then they should not be admitted. We should only be admitting transfers who are accustomed to the level of difficulty. </p>
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<p>Fair enough, then the freshman-admits should be provided the same opportunities to skip weeders through the same alternative means that the transfer students are provided. For example, if a transfer student is allowed to skip Chem3AB through some community college sequence, then I should also be allowed to skip Chem3AM by taking that same sequence, right? Otherwise, they, like I, should not be allowed to skip Chem3AB. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that all parties should be provided with the same opportunities to skip weeders, or they should both be forced to take them. What’s fair is fair. Berkeley should not allow some students to skip weeders, but not others.</p>
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<p>That would require being honest about the quality of community college students, which of course isn’t PC :rolleyes:</p>
<p>If we were really trying to be honest, we’d recognize that the community college automatic guaranteed enrollment articulation agreements are a joke. The courses at the CC are nowhere near as rigorous as the ones at the 4-year state college, and the high-school or even below high-school level of education is fit for perhaps the lowest common denominator but not yet up to the caliber of the UC system. It’s not just a situation here; it’s common throughout the country as well. Fully 40% of UVA’s transfer admits are from CCs, and studies have shown repeatedly that these students have, on average, have the lowest cumulative GPA, the lowest retention rates, and a 40% higher chance of failing to graduate within 5 years. It’s ridiculous, a waste of taxpayer money, and quite obviously nothing much will be done about it.</p>
<p>When I attended community college many years ago, I remember this one professor which I had to take 5 different science courses with. He received his PHD from Berkeley and his classes were not even remotely easy. I would consider these classes even more challenging than the weeders at Berkeley. Even though these classes were challenging, they were the ones that prepared me the best for Berkeley, definitely better than most freshman admits. </p>
<p>Since we have already gone through these weeders at CC, we shouldn’t have to go through a second set of the same weeders. Besides, even if some non-science major transfers are sub-par, you would likely benefit from this once you reach their class level since they would then be on the lower end of the grading curve, making it easier for you to get on the higher end. </p>
<p>Go ahead and continue with your argumentum ad nauseam. It will be impossible to come to an agreement within this thread, which makes me wonder where the moderators are any why this thread isn’t closed yet.</p>
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<p>Again, why not? It would only serve to validate that the transfer students truly were at par with the freshman-admits. If, as you say, the transfer students truly were fully prepared because they took equivalently-difficult weeders in community college, then they will have little difficulty in the Berkeley weeders, right? So what’s the problem? </p>
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<p>I would actually argue the opposite way - the transfer students would benefit. After all, if the transfer students truly are as qualified as you say, then they should earn a bunch of easy A’s within the Berkeley weeders that they would be required to take. The transfers should then be happy that they effectively “double-dip” by taking the same weeders twice, earning high grades both times. </p>
<p>The other solution is to let the Berkeley freshman-admits take the same courses that the transfer students take to skip weeders. You say that you took a community college course that you claim was just as difficult as any Berkeley weeder. Fine, then let’s let the freshman-admits decide by having that same choice. They should be permitted to use that same community college course that you took to skip weeders. </p>
<p>But again, the basic principle is simple. Transfer students are coming to Berkeley, so they should be subjected to the same rules that the freshman-admits are forced to be subjected to. If those rules are unfair, then those rules should be abolished for everybody. To allow only one set of students to waive certain rules is to grant special treatment. </p>
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<p>Ha! I suspect that the vast majority of threads on CC never come to an agreement, yet they’re never closed. </p>
<p>Look, the whole point of CC is allow people to express a wide range of opinions. Nobody ever said that the threads have to conclude with an agreement, and to say otherwise is to infringe upon free speech. Are people only allowed to talk about topics of which they (eventually) agree?</p>
<p>@sakky</p>
<p>Did some transfer sleep with your girlfriend or something? You’ve got a lot of pent-up anger. Maybe transfers aren’t up to grade to some math prodigy but you gotta be kidding me that you think transfers in general are this far off from the general Berkeley student population.</p>