<p>Yes, cheating often does pay. That doesn't make it right.</p>
<p>Sometimes (as noted) it is VERY right. (But probably not here.)</p>
<p>It seems to pay for members of Congress. But I agree with kelsmom that no matter whether it pays, it's always wrong. As an aside, at my D's university, there is an honor code, cheating is taken very seriously, and if caught, a cheater is in serious trouble.</p>
<p>"But I agree with kelsmom that no matter whether it pays, it's always wrong."</p>
<p>Go tell that to Oscar Schindler, or the families and descendants of the more than one thousand Jewish people he saved directly through cheating. Or the hundreds of American and British soldiers and their families and descendants who are alive today because he cheated by taking millions for guns that didn't work. </p>
<p>If that's wrong, I don't know what's right.</p>
<p>What Schindler did is not cheating as it is used in this context - he was righting a wrong - protesting a bad policy in the only way he could. Cheating on a test is stealing from the good guys - the kids who don't cheat by knocking them down in class rank, etc. However, a note form my past - in jr. high there was a group of cute girls who were the "angels." They cheated all the time. Got straight A's too. The teachers never caught them because they never looked, because they were angels. In HS, it caught up with them. When I went back as a senior, to visit 8th grade teacher, she wanted to know all about them, not me, who earned her grades, though not as high as theirs. So, I told her - two went to a Commercial HS after 2 years because they couldn't hack the curriculum, another was unmarried and pregnant, and the fourth just dropped out. That's when i told the teacher that was because they always cheated, and that I got a scholarship and was going to college, while the others went to work. Sometimes it does catch up with them.</p>
<p>^Correct. Mini, you are taking "cheating" way out of the context of this thread as well as my remarks.</p>
<p>But the point is that cheating is ALWAYS contextual. I can very easily imagine situations where sharing answers with another student is the right thing to do - and I bet if you use your imagination, you can too. </p>
<p>Probably few cases where it is used by a student in an attempt to improve his/her own grades, though. But there are cases that I have actually seen where that made sense as well. Again, not many - and always contextual.</p>
<p>I did not, however, take it out of YOUR context. Here is what you wrote:</p>
<p>"It seems to pay for members of Congress. But I agree with kelsmom that no matter whether it pays, it's always wrong."</p>
<p>You talked about members of Congress cheating, not about students improving their grades.</p>
<p>Mini, quit being clever!</p>
<p>Congenital. Sorry. ;)</p>
<p>(I have actually published on this subject: Home</a> Educator's Family Times - Black Balloon )</p>
<p>It came from a speech I made to a group of alternative educators in Gujarat, India. )</p>
<p>Mini,</p>
<p>Let us be clear, then, about precisely what I think is being discussed in this thread: academic dishonesty. I have a hard time imagining a realistic scenario in which an act of academic dishonesty, as that term is typically defined, would be justifiable, as you seem to suggest in your post. I also think it's a very poor message for you to be sending to the students who constitute the majority of the readership on CC and that you are doing them a disservice by pressing your point. I have read many of your posts on CC, and generally find them to be articulate and thoughtful -- but your posts on this thread are an exception.</p>
<p>This is a Parents Forum, and I refuse to be held responsible for students who "cheat" and decide to read and post here.</p>
<p>As for whether you have a difficult time imagining a realistic scenario in which an act of "academic dishonesty" would be justifiable, I would simply ask that you sit with it a little longer. (Have you never heard of a kid who, having been taught badly, cheated on a test in order to avoid being severely beaten at home?)</p>
<p>Context is everything.</p>
<p>Some parents have unreasonable academic expectations for their kid.</p>
<p>I cheated to avoid getting yelled at.</p>
<p>^And I would ask you to provide a realistic example of justifiable academic dishonesty that doesn't involve comparing Oscar Schindler's actions with your average college student plagiarizing a term paper.</p>
<p>I did. See above. But I bet you can think of plenty more, if you just put your mind to it (or simply reflect upon experience.)</p>
<p>Mini,</p>
<p>Using your logic, what could one NOT justify? I asked you to give me a realistic example. Tell me in the normal context of academic dishonesty at the university level, when is cheating justified? You're obviously an intelligent person. Don't hedge. It's unbecoming.</p>
<p>Why should I post about a university student when the OP asked about high schoolers? Why do you need to move the subject off topic?</p>
<p>I gave you a VERY realistic example - not only one that is realistic, but one that is REAL. </p>
<p>What can one NOT justify? Lack of compassion probably ranks high on my list. Indifference and apathy often rank high (though, again, sometimes they are contextual, and, in reality, mask fear). Conformity when a situation calls for resistance or rebellion (again, often the result of fear). Self-aggrandisement isn't that great, either. </p>
<p>You can add to the list if you like.</p>
<p>Fine. Give me a realistic example, in the normal context of academic dishonesty at the high school level, of when cheating is justifiable. Hint: analogies to Oscar Schindler and/or the threat of getting beaten up at home don't count. You said that there are lots of examples. Please give us one.</p>
<p>I did. (see post #51). I don't see why real "experience" - not "threat", but experience, doesn't count. </p>
<p>Now would this have been my preferred course of action for her. Nope. But I don't live in her world. And the world can sometimes be a pretty lousy place.</p>
<p>I can think of a whole bunch more with the new round of "high stakes testing". I bet you can, too. All contextual.</p>
<p>^I'm on the east coast and it's getting close to midnight. Hopefully, when I get up in the morning, you will have posted something better than "see post #51" (which I already told you wasn't a realistic example) and/or a suggestion that I come up with my own realistic example in answer to a question that I asked YOU. Good night (and good grief!).</p>
<p>It is indeed a realistic example. Just admit that EVERYONE cheats in life, in one way or another.</p>