Does cheating pay?

Parents Forum
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<p>I don't think most parents are at all aware of the extent of cheating at schools today.
as my Chem teacher last year put it "Nowadays, the only difference between an Honor student and a Regular student is that the Honor student is smart enough to know how to cheat without getting caught, and/or cares enough to cheat without getting caught."<br>
Now it also depends on what you classify as cheating. Does splitting up a vocab word assignment consititute cheating? what about copying homework? plagerizing a paper? getting answers to a test? </p>

<p>From my experience, most kids only really view "cheating," as copying answers on a test, getting anwers to a test, or plagerizing an essay. These types of "cheating" are much less prevalent than the others, and the last two examples are pretty rare cases. The first is a little more accepted, based on teachers/classes. For instance, I know some kids do things like put a couple of hard-to-remember formulas in their calculators before a math test or something, and my french teacher cannot control a class, and everyone just talks openly and obviously share answers. </p>

<p>Homework-cheating though, is an everyday occurence. and I mean EVERY. DAY. From my experience, there is often just too much pressure and too many things to do. Each teacher expects you to spend hours at a time on his/her class, and when you take 5 AP courses, this is simply not possible. Some say, well then why are you taking 5 AP courses if you can't handle them!? Well, if it really is an AP course, I think that very few high schoolers could manage 5 along with extracurriculars and other stuff. But some kids figured out how to fit in those 5 courses without spending the expected amount of time working for each one. These kids then raised the expectations of parents and counselors for how many higher level courses to take, and a snowball effect was created.</p>

<p>Anyway, "cheating" on homework is rampant at my school, and I don't personally believe there is much wrong with it. Most teachers don't actually GRADE the homework, they just check to see that something is done. </p>

<p>For example, does it REALLY matter whether you copy the vocabulary words out of the textbook or from your friend's sheet of paper?
In other cases, like for my physics class, we get a point for each homework question. So a ten question assignment is worth ten points, and if you don't have a question done you lose a point. This is a stupid policy because what happens if you simply can't understand a question? Oftentimes in physics, if you don't understand what the question is asking for or what formulas to use/how to use them, you can't get much done for the problem. So instead of losing a few points each night, kids just copy some answers from each other.
The saddest and simultaneously most hilarious thing ever is that, in the morning half of our junior class (mostly the top half) tends to gather in this one hallway on the third floor, in which one of our teacher's classrooms is. Everyday in the morning, people are frantically copying and doing homework for this class, which about 1/3 of the kids have FIRST PERIOD! Right outside this teacher's classroom.</p>

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<p>Oh, for goodness sakes, mini, you know the point exactly. Thanks, Alamode, for bringing the discussion in the Parent's Forum up to adult level. Some times it takes a kid. : )</p>

<p>I don't know if there is more academic cheating now than there was in my day. I went to a highschool where most of the kids were not college bound and there wasn't enough interest to cheat. My kids seem to fall in that category as well. </p>

<p>With the availabilty of the internet, plagiarism is certainly much easier, and it's never been easier to buy a paper. It looks like there are some higher level products available for cheaters these days. Much more sophisticated than copying from the encyclopedia. Also parents are more involved it seems, in their kids' schoolwork, and they are often the source of the cheating as well. </p>

<p>I will note that I have been told by military recruiters that there are more kids these days who have had the police called on them, or arrested. Often for things that would not have raised an eyebrow. Lots of dispensaations needed. So is it because we don't tolerate as much, refuse to close our eyes, or is there really more flaunting of laws?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
What can one NOT justify?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think you're referring to rationalization</a>, not justification.</p>

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<p>Cpt, </p>

<p>I agree. Cheating is not new, just perhaps higher tech now.</p>

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<p>I think alamode articulated well the current high school climate. There has been an escalation in the academic rigor that is expected of children. When I was a junior in high school, my GC called me in because he was concerned that I had signed up for 3 AP's for senior year. Although I was at the top of my class, he thought that might be too heavy a load. And you know what? It WAS a ton of work and I was no slouch. (For English alone, we had to read a major work of literature and write a 5-6 page paper on it every 2 weeks, on top of other daily assignments. Do you know how many kids would be "sick" every other Friday?) Now, kids start taking AP's as freshmen, and no GC at our hs would ever blink an eye at 5 AP's junior or senior year for a top student. Maybe the classes are easier now; probably the students are smarter? I'm not sure. </p>

<p>And the same snowball effect happened with EC's, and that's why kids cheat in that arena too. Are they really that much more driven and efficient than we were, that they can handle being an officer of four clubs, captain of a sports team, and at the same time be running a major charitable foundation--all while maintaing a 4.0? (And yes I know there are exceptions and they are probably all kids of CCers.) But look at the chances threads. Those lists make me anxious and tired, wondering how these kids manage to do it all. The answer is they don't.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I think you're referring to rationalization, not justification.

[/quote]
Exactly, Audio

[quote]
Have you never heard of a kid who, having been taught badly, cheated on a test in order to avoid being severely beaten at home?)

[/quote]
Wow...You know a child who is beaten & can be cavalier about her cheating? I'd have hoped for more compassion from you, mini. Perhaps inviting her over for tutoring. Or contacting either school or Youth/Family Service authorities.</p>

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<p>Audiophile,</p>

<p>Your point is well taken. I stand corrected.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Homework-cheating though, is an everyday occurence. and I mean EVERY. DAY. From my experience, there is often just too much pressure and too many things to do. Each teacher expects you to spend hours at a time on his/her class, and when you take 5 AP courses, this is simply not possible. Some say, well then why are you taking 5 AP courses if you can't handle them!? Well, if it really is an AP course, I think that very few high schoolers could manage 5 along with extracurriculars and other stuff. But some kids figured out how to fit in those 5 courses without spending the expected amount of time working for each one. These kids then raised the expectations of parents and counselors for how many higher level courses to take, and a snowball effect was created.</p>

<p>Anyway, "cheating" on homework is rampant at my school, and I don't personally believe there is much wrong with it. Most teachers don't actually GRADE the homework, they just check to see that something is done.

[/quote]

That's a big assumption you're making. I took 5 AP classes last year and 6 this year and I have never cheated on homework. My classmates think very highly of me so I can't ask them to see their homework. I also do not like the idea of copying the wrong answers.
Key to doing it all is sleep about 4 hours/day and make up for it during the weekend. Seem to work for me the past 4 years.</p>

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<p>^noo! never compromise on sleep</p>

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<p>re this post from Northstarmom:</p>

<p>
[quote]
"My S has seen plenty of cheating at his high school."</p>

<p>Is he reporting it?
When students see cheating and don't report it, they are enabling the cheating to continue.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My S is the student you refer to who sees lots of cheating. Student reporting on cheaters is not required at his school, nor would I like to see such a rule implemented. Charges would would be difficult for a fellow student to prove, and this is not something that I'd like my son to spend his precious time doing. He says that he thinks education should be cooperative, and an administrative mandate to report cheating would foster a negative environment. After all, the offending student is the one who hasn't learned the material and may suffer for it. </p>

<p>And lastly, one of the teacher's jobs IS to try to identify and/or prevent cheating. I think that my kid has enough to do without adding "cheater police" to his resume.</p>

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<p>I have to agree with gladmom in that my kids report alot of cheating as I've stated before. My kids are also in the advanced track classes. There are some kids that do cheat because their parents expect As out of them and they simply aren't capable of producing A work. But there are equal numbers of kids who cheat just because they want to game the system and kids who cheat simply because they can, according to my kids. I do believe it plays out in standardized test scores and over the long run. I do think the teachers play a role in that they need to create a classroom and homework environment that is not conductive to cheating and I don't think the kids should police each other. As a parent all I can do is tell my children that cheating is unethical. To tell them that I would much prefer a well deserved B than a A gained from cheating and that ethical behavior will pay off in the long run. I tell them if they bomb a test it means they didn't learn the material and that the whole point is to learn the material not to get the grade. I tell them there are no "grades" in real life so concentrate on mastering the material and you won't need to worry about the outcome. My son this week successfully completed his freshman year in college. He knows a handful of cheating high school kids who did not have a successful freshman year....gee I wonder why...not...as the kids would say.</p>

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<p>We've learned the hard way that our school administrations do not protect whistle-blowers, but rather expose them and humiliate them. They will even endanger them. First of all, many teachers are perfectly well aware that kids cheat, but for various reasons they have decided to ignore it. It could be that it's just less hassle for them that way, or that the child is well-connected (school board member or teacher's child), or that they believe what goes around comes around. If a child points out the problem, now the teacher's hand is somehwat forced and he will resent the tattler. Secondly, we've seen school employees reveal to the perpetrator who accused him, and as was pointed out, cheating is hard to prove and especially after the fact. Telling also could have serious social costs. Back when "hit lists" were the bad fad, D once reported to a teacher that another child, whom she knew to be trouble, had made a "hit list" of classmates she planned to kill. The teacher confronted the child, who denied it, and the teacher never checked her notebooks to see if the story was true. The lady told the kid my D was the one who told her that, and then, unbelievably, the teacher placed the troubled child in the same cabin with my D for outdoor school.</p>

<p>After that, I told my kids to mind their own business.</p>

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<p>Momof3, I so love what you have told your kids and think that you are right on. And regarding the kids who had trouble freshman year in college, the work there will be a rude awakenening for the kid who either never learned to study in HS or didn't really have to.</p>

<p>theGFG, I think you are right about the problems of being a whistle blower, and I don't want my kids reporting minor stuff . But I was unpleasantly surprised to hear about the school's reaction to the "hit list" writing kid. I would encourage my kids to always report that kind of thing, because you never know when it might be a serious threat. Before kids get into college, they will probably need parental support to do the reporting. I would have no problem marching up to the principal's office with the info.</p>

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<p>oh my. hahaha i once had a "hit list"</p>

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<p>Yes, cheating pays. I don't remember seeing much cheating in high school, but it was certainly rampant in college (this was about 25 years ago). In my freshman Physics class, my lab partner lived in a fraternity where they had a file of "A" exams and lab books from former members. He always brought in a book and copied from it. He offered it to me, too, but I wouldn't use it. He got an A, I got a B in the class. This was typical, and I've see the same thing throughout my career.
From what I've seen, cheating rarely comes back to haunt anyone. They rationalize what they do, and to some degree people are consider it the "way of the world". Can you name any powerful people who do not exploit loopholes in the law, for instance? I take pride in how I've conducted myself throughout my life, but I have to admit I sometimes think I was a sucker. I could have cheated my way to better grades, better jobs, and less struggle, and no one would have been the wiser. Nah, it's just not my style.</p>

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<p>^Bravo, Silverweed. We are two of a kind (i.e., both suckers :-) ). I agree with your observation that cheaters often prosper, but I think it's a lot more important to have integrity and good character. Panic, take note: Not everyone cheats.</p>

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<p>silverweed: Our family, too, does not cheat, nor would we would even know which loopholes to exploit. If someone took advantage of a legal loophole, however, that wouldn't be illegal or cheating. If there are holes in the law, then the lawmakers are responsible for closing them up.</p>

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<p>"I could have cheated my way to better grades, better jobs, and less struggle, and no one would have been the wiser"</p>

<p>Except for the person in the mirror...</p>

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<p>What an interesting thread! </p>

<p>A couple of points:</p>

<p>mini, I wrote an honors thesis, lo these many years ago, on George Eliot, Kohlberg, and Carol Gilligan. Your points brought it all back to me. Gilligan argued that many girls scored low on Kohlberg's moral reasoning scales because they valued caring for people and understanding their contexts.<br>
Kohlberg himself had a higher score for the moral reasoners who worked out their own set of principles and ethics and were not just "law and order" bound. That is reflected on this thread too -- people truly believe in the ramifications of sacrificing their personal integrity; they're not just saying, "Oh, don't cheat because there are rules against it and it's wrong." But Gilligan believed that compassion trumps even personal codes of ethics in alternative, more feminine moral reasoning.
So fascinating!</p>

<p>Back to our high schoolers -- thanks to the kids posting. My daughter (the younger) gets upset with all the cheating in her honors classes. She has seen kids go up to teacher's laptops that are open to the grading system and change scores. She has seen signalling during exams. This is different, however, in her mind and her sis's from working together on worksheets and assignments, divvying up sections of study guides. Older D, I'm pretty sure, has been part of those AM groups all copying from homework pages -- younger D, probably not (though older D would never cheat on an exam or paper-- she would, pragmatically, think that was really, really immature and studpid). And these are the honor students. Maybe the above point was correct -- they are the only ones who obsessively care about getting A's. </p>

<p>WHY are the kids so overscheduled? Why are club sports so prevalent, with four or five nights of practice and games all weekend? Why do teachers assign homework that they don't really read (this happens at our school, too)? </p>

<p>I too tell my daughters that cheating catches up with you in college, but I am starting to wonder if that is a fairy tale. I think teachers and profs have much lower expectations of students than ever before -- and yet grades have never been higher.</p>

<p>When all the false idols come tumbling down, and our kids see all around them presidents and corporate titans and sports stars all cheating, how can they not interpret words like "academic integrity" differently than we did? Maybe when I was younger, we Catholic kids still believed a little too much in paying for our sins later . . .</p>

<p>But I do agree with the parents above who teach their children about the importance of being able to live with THEMSELVES and look THEMSELVES in the mirror. As Sinead O'Connor sings in the Emperor's New Clothes,
"I will sleep with a clear conscience,
I will sleep in peace."</p>

<p>Sorry for the length.</p>

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<p>My d has told me about how much cheating went on in her high school. She sometimes feels she is the only one who doesn't cheat. One teacher even complimented her for actually doing her own work. How sad is that?</p>

<p>There is a thread titled "Need some advice on cheaters" (sorry, I don't know how to post the link) in the college life forum. I found this thread to be very depressing. It seems that even in college, cheating is considered perfectly acceptable, to the point where people stand up for the cheater, and anyone who complains about it is considered to be a problem person.</p>