<p>Does it really make all that much of a difference whether you go to Wharton and then Penn law (wharton undergrad) vs. Harvard/Yale/Stanford law?</p>
<p>Even if the schools were in fact equivalent, it's often advisable to go to different institutions if at all possible.</p>
<p>Is that simply to build more connections as you'd have the benefit of both school's alumni network?</p>
<p>Well the reason I would go to Wharton/penn law is that they have a special six year program where you can matriculate early from Wharton to the law school.</p>
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Well the reason I would go to Wharton/penn law is that they have a special six year program where you can matriculate early from Wharton to the law school.
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<p>Of course that's presuming that you can get in the submatric program. Only a handful of people do. </p>
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Is that simply to build more connections as you'd have the benefit of both school's alumni network?
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<p>Yep, and that's an important factor particularly if you're looking to branch out of law later.</p>
<p>While only a handfull of people get into the 6 year program, the dean of admissions to the program tells me that virtually all people who apply to the program from Wharton get in, while very few from Penn get in.</p>
<p>Of course it does. The HYS law schools are miles ahead of Penn Law.</p>
<p>"The HYS law schools are miles ahead of Penn Law."</p>
<p>Oh, really? What metrics are you looking at here in making this judgment?</p>
<p>It matters a little. You will have to be higher ranked at UPenn law versus what HYS students to have similar job prospects. Its certainly not an impossible obstacle to be just as successful coming from a law school thats not HYS.</p>
<p>Some key data would be the interquartile range of salaries for recent grads. Harvard's is around 110-120 I believe and Upenn is around 80-110. You can afford to slack off less at lower ranked schools as would be expected.</p>
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Oh, really? What metrics are you looking at here in making this judgment?
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<p>Student selectivity, faculty quality, reputation in and out of the law world, job placement (especially nationally and in biglaw), clerkship placement, academic placement, LRAP program, etc.</p>
<p>Obviously, I'm a bit defensive here of my alma mater, but "miles ahead" is a gross misrepresentation. To be honest, I don't think that are miles between any of the T14 law schools. Arguably, there aren't miles between any school in the T14 and any other school in the T25. For the most part, all of the same firms recruit at all of these schools.</p>
<p>Additionally, looking at the average salaries that graduates achieve as some measure of how successful that law school is in placing their graduates is incredibly misleading since regional differences in salaries are significant. It shouldn't be surprising to you that many Penn Law graduates go to work in Philadelphia, where the starting salaries at even the largest law firms is not as high as at the big firms in NYC and LA, for example (the cost of living in Philly is much lower too). But, since it seems to be an issue here, keep in mind that most students at T14 law schools have choices to make with respect to their careers, but the choices are plentiful -- and factors in these choices can include geography, practice area, private versus public employment, and yes, salary.</p>
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You will have to be higher ranked at UPenn law versus what HYS students to have similar job prospects.
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<p>Yale, Stanford and Penn do not rank their law students.</p>
<p>Yale:</p>
<p>**Yales does not use letter or numerical grades. Instead Yale relies on an Honors/Pass/Fail system. In addition, first year classes are graded on a credit basis. As such one cannot rank students easily and indeed Yale unequivocally does not rank students.* Yale insists that this system is designed to provide a congenial learning environment for students, one that fosters legal discourse and creativity rather than the cut-throat competitiveness that is usual at most law schools. 28 In short it is virtually impossible to distinguish one Yale graduate from another in the traditional sense.*</p>
<p>Stanford:</p>
<p>**Stanford does not rank its students.*<a href="pg.%2042">/i</a></p>
<p>Penn:</p>
<p>**University of Pennsylvania Law School students are not ranked in class.* The University of Pennsylvania Career Planning & Placement Co-Director, Diane Downs, advises that, employers should take care in comparing our system with those of other schools Penn Law students are admitted under very competitive standards, yet the Law Schools mandatory curve requires that some students fall into all grade categories. *</p>
<p>pg 68</p>
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To be honest, I don't think that are miles between any of the T14 law schools. Arguably, there aren't miles between any school in the T14 and any other school in the T25. For the most part, all of the same firms recruit at all of these schools.
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<p>You're entitled to your opinion, but the fact remains that law firms all have OCI cutoff GPAs, and students at top law schools get much more slack. To suggest that there "aren't miles between" HYS and a T25 like GWU is absurd.</p>
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Additionally, looking at the average salaries...is incredibly misleading since regional differences in salaries are significant.
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<p>I mentioned placement into top firms, e.g. Vault-ranked ones, clerkships, and academia. I didn't mention average salary as a figure of merit.</p>
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Yale, Stanford and Penn do not rank their law students.
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<p>That's completely different from saying that grades don't matter at all. Firms know roughly where your GPA places you among your class, and you can bet this information is used for hiring Stanford and Penn graduates. And the fact still stands that a Stanford grad ranked lower than the Penn grad can and will get similar, if not better, job offers.</p>
<p>This time I'm responding to im_blue (last time I wasn't responding only to your comments)</p>
<p>"You're entitled to your opinion, but the fact remains that law firms all have OCI cutoff GPAs, and students at top law schools get much more slack. To suggest that there "aren't miles between" HYS and a T25 like GWU is absurd."</p>
<p>I have to say that you're just wrong about all law firms here. I used to be heavily involved in recruiting when I worked at my top NYC law firm (and I obviously have some experience from having interviewed at many of the top firms in NYC and other select major cities myself), and there just weren't grade cut-offs when it came to the T14 law schools. We recruited at almost all of the T25 schools (as do most of the top firms), and since most of these schools do not allow firms to make grade or other "cut-off" type distinctions when they come on campus to interview, we interviewed everyone who got through the lotteries at their respective schools to get onto our interview schedules. Law firms may suggest GPA cut-offs, but like I said, they are not enforced by the law schools. That's not to say that having good grades doesn't help tremendously, but at top law schools, your grades are by no means absolutely determinative. If your experiences doing on campus recruiting for your law firm differ from what I've stated, please let me know.</p>
<p>"I didn't mention average salary as a figure of merit."</p>
<p>I wasn't responding to your post with my statement regarding regional and other differences with salaries.</p>
<p>"And the fact still stands that a Stanford grad ranked lower than the Penn grad can and will get similar, if not better, job offers."</p>
<p>Similar, yes. Better? That's not necessarily accurate or true. First, when law firm employers go on campus to interview at different law schools, rarely, if ever, are they comparing students from one school to another when they do so. In addition, the wining and dining and courting of law students occurs at most of the T14 schools, and at some of the T25 schools even when some of the T14 are not as heavily courted. Furthermore, because of the perception that a student in a particular school on the west coast, for example, if more likely to stay and work on the west coast, most east coast firms dedicate fewer resources to interviewing on campus out west. The opposite holds true as well. Using my former law firm as an example again, we would interview 8 schedules of 20 students each at Penn (allowing over half of the student body to interview), we would interview 16-17 schedules of 20 students each at Harvard (again, allowing over half of the much larger HLS student body to interview) and we would interview only 4 schedules of 20 students each at Stanford, assuming that fewer students there were interested in coming to NYC to work. Of course, to the extent that students let us know that they were interested in interviewing but didn't get on our schedules, we would try to make some time for them, or at least take their resumes. On a per student basis, then, as a Stanford Law Student, you might actually have a more difficult time getting on the on campus schedule of a NYC law firm if you really wanted to work in NYC. I'm sure that the same holds true for LA/SF firms interviewing on the east coast. Moreover, if you are at a T14 law school, there is only very slight differences in your opportunities at the top law firms in this country -- certainly nothing that would constitute "miles".</p>
<p>Additionally, with respect to grades, anyone who has dismal grades at any of the T14 schools is going to have an uphill climb to get the job of their dreams. On the other hand, someone with stellar grades at any of the T14 schools will likely (assuming that they actually have a likeable personality and can get through the interview process well) have many employment options to choose from. Someone who falls somewhere in the middle of their class at any of the T14 law schools will also obtain employment, though it may not be a "first choice" employer and these students may not have as many choices to make. What you will find are marginal differences between the opportunities available to a HLS student in the middle of his or her class versus a Penn student, for example, in the middle of his or her class. The differences, though, are not large (and are certainly much smaller than I once thought before I went to law school, went through the interviewing process and then did some recruiting on the other side). </p>
<p>If your recruiting and on campus interviewing experiences for your law firm are any different, please let me know.</p>
<p>Thank you very much for your indept response.</p>
<p>The thing that no one has commented on is this:</p>
<p>Does the wharton undergraduate degree mean anything? Or is the law school all that matters?</p>
<p>Law firms and other employers who interview on campus at law schools definitely notice where you went to school undergrad, though if you did very well at any school you will likely have no problems in interviews. </p>
<p>I'll give you an example. As I mentioned earlier, most of the T14 law schools do not allow law firms to make grade cut-offs in selecting students for interviews. However, most law firms recruiting on campus will ask for a copy of your law school transcript during your initial interview, and you are expected to hand one over. I've never known of a law firm to ask for an undergraduate transcript during on campus or call back interviews, though the college that you attended figures prominently on your resume and is noted on your law school transcript. Certain law firms will eventually ask for a copy of your undergraduate transcript, but I'm reasonably certain that this occurs only to verify that you indeed received your undergraduate degree. </p>
<p>To answer your direct question, if you are applying to a law firm that specializes in complex corporate transactional matters or corporate finance work, your undergraduate degree from Wharton will likely be a plus for you, though it will hardly be determinative. The law school you attend and the grades you get there, as well as your participation on a journal/law review, moot court, etc., and, of course, your personality and presentation during your interviews will be the main factors that the recruiting law firm looks at.</p>