<p>Then all of us give you a hearty "shalom!"</p>
<p>I think both points have some merit to them. Going to an Ivy will give you a leg up on the competition in your first job. You've worked hard in high school and "matured" faster than your competition and you choose to go to an Ivy so you can continue your feast for knowledge. Meanwhile, your HS classmates go to the state school and what do you know, some of them mature and start working hard and graduate with good grades and solid internships. And yes there are also the people who get *****faced every night and don't do as well. And there are also the people who wanted to go to Ivies with high test scores or other credentials but weren't accepted. So basically, at the state school you have a lot of different types of people. At the Ivies, you have the people who did well in high school and that's why they're there. So for the time being, they've won the battle. </p>
<p>So then in 4-6 years everyone graduates. The Ivy people follow their dreams to grad school or Wall Street. The state school people who manage to graduate go get jobs too but not as lucrative as Wall St or they go to grad school also. So again, the Ivies win the battle.</p>
<p>Now another 5-10 years down the road, the Ivies quit Wall St cuz the hours are too crazy for them or they graduate from grad school and are ready to do whatever's next whether that be professional jobs or wanting to be a manager. The state school people also graduate from grad school or have 5-10 years of work experience. Now, it doesn't matter what school you're from anymore cuz everything is based on what you've done the past 5-10 years of work/career. </p>
<p>Thus, Ivies give you can advantage when you graduate imo but the playing field levels out in the future and by then everything is based on your experiences or whatnot.</p>
<p>And this is a completely general story. Obviously it differs but that's what my view on Ivies is. In general, they come out making more b/c they are Ibankers working 70-80 hours and getting paid 80+80 bonus then they get overwhelmed and need a break so they quit Ibanking. That's been my experience with my friends who went to Ivies. So I agree that it helps with the first job but is definitely a predictor of future success.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
I'd say the US Naval Academy is way up there for those who are in the know. Maybe not as respected as Harvard or Stanford per se (probably because of the whole mandatory service), but definitely more prestigious than a "second tier state school". I don't know how he defines "well" but I'm pretty sure if he had gotten A's and B's in lit and history as long as he passed math and science he wouldn't have graduated that poorly. Though, I'm not sure how they decide rank at the US Naval Academy so I could be far off. But anyway McCain is a huge exception to the rule. But I'm with you on the side of the debate at hand.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>Honestly, the only school which I really know about and would consider top tier would be West Point.</p>
<p>That being said, I don't know enough about those other schools to really know about the other service academies, but when I hear someones going to West Point I know that they're incredibly disciplined and are pretty good. Don't forget that most of your 4star generals come out of there.</p>
<p>But my McCain example is just to illustrate that he went to a non-ivy and can compete just as well, if not better than those who went to Ivy league schools.</p>
<p>Flight delayed six hours. You guys are keeping me company.</p>
<p>I’m going to go at this issue from another angle (I always prided myself on being an excellent communicator. You guys have me rethinking that.) It’s off the original topic so I apologize in advance.</p>
<p>Five years ago I started to hear from mid-level managers in my organization that they were having a hard time finding or identifying “talent”. No one was pushing the panic button, but it seemed odd that a company like ours (we choose you, you don’t choose us) would have this problem.</p>
<p>Now, the panic button is being pushed.</p>
<p>Talented people are MIA. We can’t fill the seats. We can’t find our rising stars. We are considered one of the top companies to work for. We look within and without. Mentors are eager and waiting to help out. HR organizes so many leadership training talks and seminars and off-sites I get dizzy thinking about it. Yet, we can’t identify these people. Where’d the talented people go?</p>
<p>My sense is that our pool of eager, bright and well-educated employees/recruits is missing the ability to successfully fail or fail successfully. This group hates to fail. They will avoid looking bad at all costs. They have all the knowledge and all the ability in the world, but they can’t/won’t assume the risk involved in taking the lead. They don’t initiate; they follow. Leaders accept risk and move forward. </p>
<p>One thought: this next generation-after X before Z-has been given so many opportunities, so many enriched experiences, so many pats on the back and unearned rewards that they are emotionally ill- equipped for work-world reality. (Doesn’t anyone else find it horrifying that you basically can’t fail out of a top-tier school? What does that say to a student?)</p>
<p>The few truly talented people I can readily identify in my division have been knocked down…more than once. They have had to be creative and they have had to ask for help. Given their backgrounds, they embrace risk and change and they love to help others succeed. Their goals are ever changing as the organization's needs change. They understand the risk/reward nature of work and life. They do great work, but they look at work differently than most of their contemporaries. They fail, and they don’t blame others when it happens. They’ve failed before and lived to tell about it… and they will do it again. </p>
<p>The current college acceptance mania could be the birth of this reluctance to fail. We “reward” not failing with the trophy of acceptance into HYP. Kids are perfectionists before they enter ninth grade. I know kids who are in such an extracurricular frenzy they don’t have time to think, they just do. They do so many things it boggles my middle-aged mind, but they don’t seem to enjoy the activities they are engaged in and they certainly don’t learn from them. These are just activities to get them the big trophy. In so many ways we aren’t rewarding the right things and the results, seen from my very-corporate view, are coming home to roost.</p>
<p>I completely understand parent’s desire to provide their child with the best opportunities and the most options. I’m just not sure that not having those things won’t prove to be more valuable to most people in the long run.</p>
<p>I feel like everyone is in this same sinking boat, and we should put our oars together and figure out how to develop sane, functional, talented human beings. We can value the school someone goes to, or we can value the person they become while going there. We can keep turning teenagers into manic, tired prize winners, or we can nurture and encourage them to develop depth, values and a sense of selflessness. </p>
<p>So, I believe the OP has had her question answered, but the larger Public Service Announcement can’t be made enough times: outside of a few professions and a few companies (great orgs like Bain inhale Ivy grads), where you obtain your undergraduate degree doesn’t matter. </p>
<p>That’s it. Oh, and please, someone, fix the airline industry…it’s such a mess.</p>
<p>Don't worry! Give me a few years to do some schoolin' and I'll come to the rescue!! lol</p>
<p>I believe it does matter to some degree. You certainly dont need the Ivies or any schools in the top 30. I dont think you can make a bad decision with any schools on the USNWR top 100 list.</p>
<p>It's a combination of both the student and the college that will determine "success," however defined.</p>
<p>There are also outliers, of course, who would fail at any college or succeed at any school. For most people though, I believe that their personality can either be invigorated by their academic institution or depressed by it. The degrees to which either action may happen obviously depend upon the personal circumstances of the individual and college involved.</p>
<p>For my own part, I have been attending a "non-top" 4-year school for the past 2 years and have been depressed by it. Getting 'A' grades required little to no real effort on my part, and I feel that I've gotten very little out of most of my classes. Some of my classmates were engaging, intelligent, and mature individuals; most of them, however, spoke only of alcohol and mediocre jobs after graduation. It felt like HS 2.0.</p>
<p>As I transition to what I consider to be a far better school--one in the "Top 30"--I find myself entering a whole new world. The comparison is obviously incomplete, but I think my point is made without being arrogant: I was, at least by the standards of my previous institution and its professors, at the top of my class; however, my situation was depressing to me. I did not have great opportunities to network because most of my classmates were not people with whom I cared to associate beyond the classroom. So while I clearly succeeded at this institution in terms of grades, I did find myself limited by the lack of resources, academic rigor, and student body.</p>
<p>What about outside of the top 100?</p>
<p>Because I was curious. I took a look at the rankings. </p>
<p>From 75, you see schools such as:
Boulder Colorado
Colorado school of mines
St Louis U
UC Santa Cruz</p>
<p>After 100
UC San Diego
University of Oklahoma
Drexel
Texas Christian U
Ohio U
Loyola
Florda State U</p>
<p>r2dtoo, thank you so much for your long post. I read every single word twice, and think those are great words of wisdom. Have you ever considered becoming a part-time college counselor? I also think it was very cute how you assume I am female :) </p>
<p>And also, Jahn1012, thank you for sharing your college experience. I definitely don't want college to be the same as I'm feeling right now in high school (what you went through as well).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Don't forget that most of your 4star generals come out of there.
[/quote]
Well, the four stars in the Army at least. While the top grads out of the service academies are as good as the top grads anywhere (and I do mean ANYWHERE), I'd say that self-selection also has something to do with it -- those that are serious about making a career out of the military are more likely to attend a service academy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Because I was curious. I took a look at the rankings. </p>
<p>UC San Diego
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Which ranking is this? UCSD is in the top 40.</p>
<p>USNews.com:</a> America's Best Colleges 2008: National Universities: Top Schools</p>
<p>You were probably referring to USD...</p>
<p>Sorry. I think you're right. I browsed it really quick and saw University and San Diego so I thought it was the UC. My bad.</p>
<p>Jan1012- I am so happy that you are moving to a better college for yourself. They probably look at you as a great transfer because now you have an idea of what you want. You sound motivated to take advantage of everything offered. Good for you! You will bring a lot to the school.</p>
<p>Your first college sounds like our HS- or any HS here, public or private. Basically our town theme is fun. When my first kid went to an Ivy she was hammered with the work load compared to her HS & what her top HS friends were doing at the state schools. Plus- hardly any partying- everyone was reading & studying. Ugh. More intense people than here. We thought she might switch to the state U a she was sooo disappointed by this, but she stayed. As the years have gone on she has come realize what she has gotten & the opportunities she has had- that her friends here don't have &/or don't care about. Completely different mindset: just not comparable. She's in an IVY grad school starting this fall. She sees it as an adventure living & learning out of state. Maybe she'll come back here, maybe not. She has grown a lot by being with students from other places & backgrounds. She has learned that there is more to life & many human needs to help with- than partying all the time- like HS.</p>
<p>oreo, out of curiosity, where did your kids go for undergrad and where are they now?</p>
<p>r2Dtoo -- it sounds like you're sensing that the entrepreneurial spirit (definition of an entrepreneur is that they have failed at least twice and keep gong) is waning... that the approach taken by aspiring Top 30 College students in high school is stifling their ability to develop as entrepreneurs.</p>
<p>I can see that a "one strike you're out" approach could do that. I'm wondering if the corporate world isn't equally to blame, with a 90 day performance focus tuned to Wall St. analysts.</p>
<p>I mentioned this in my post about three pages ago -- if the Ivy students are handed interviews and internships from which they merely need to choose, when do they learn to fight, scratch, strike out, fail, scramble, pull it together and break through? When is incredible support TOO MUCH support? I simply wonder whether these extremely supportive colleges haven't become an institutional verson of the Helicopter Parent.</p>
<p>Eh. They learned to fight to get into top schools. At least I know I did. I think the problem r2Dtoo is sensing is not a problem with top schools but a problem with society in general. But that's just my opinion.</p>
<p>Uhh how is entrepreneurial spirit dying at top schools? Google and Facebook were both started by Stanford and Harvard students.</p>
<p>Of course where you go for undergrad matters. Thats why I'm going to Duke, and by doing so, virtually ensured myself that I will forever be in the top echelons, both financially and power-wise, of society.</p>
<p>imathriver, I thought you post was surely a put-down of EAD's position... I was going to reply that you're an imposter who couldn't possibly be going to Duke because of the poorly written post.</p>
<p>Then I realized you might be serious. Please tell me you're joking around.</p>