<p>My daughter has the GPA and test scores to get into any of our state colleges. However, I have recently discovered that our top four schools are grossly overcrowded, at least in her major. She has talked to those currently attending and emailed each school and the upper level classes in her major will have 100 - 200 students on the LOW side and 200 - 400 people on the high side depending on the school. Personally, I don't think that will provide a great education even if there is a recognizable name on the diploma.</p>
<p>We have some lesser known state colleges. Honestly, I am betting that the vast majority of people that attend these colleges fall into two categories: They either live nearby so they chose them for an easy commute or they couldn't get into one of the better universities in our state. </p>
<p>What makes these other schools such bad options? The classes are so much smaller. She is looking at under 30 students in her upper level classes as opposed to 200 +. They offer an honors program that she would qualify for. They just don't have many reviews - good or bad. It is like they barely exist! </p>
<p>In terms of fit, she has liked them all (top schools, unknowns, privates). She doesn't seem overly picky and adapts well and could probably make anyplace work. Out of state isn't an option. She wants to remain in-state. We've looked at privates and she will apply to one or two but I don't necessarily think the ones we have are really any better than our smaller state schools. </p>
<p>My daughter is absolutely going on to grad school and she will be attending a top school for that. Her graduate degree will be very specialized and there are only a handful of colleges across the nation that offer this degree. Her undergraduate degree is a dime a dozen. In the long run, will employers care where her undergraduate degree came from once she has her graduate degree?</p>
<p>If she chooses carefully, she could do very well at a “lesser” public, especially with an honors program. She may find that the “general population” doesn’t offer as much in terms of class discussion, but the honors classes will balance that.</p>
<p>The key factor will be making connections with the faculty and becoming active in research (or whatever the professional activity is in her planned field of graduate study). The strength of her recommendations will help her get into grad school and may lead to a significant scholarship there.</p>
<p>I guess it depends on your state. I don’t feel our state schools are very good at all and the “lesser known” ==meaning no one on CC knows them–are far superior schools, mainly for all the reasons you state. They have much higher percentages of kids going on to grad, med, law, PT, etc. schools and job placement rates are significantly higher. Unless she wants to work on Wall Street, the name on your UG diploma is meaningless. It’s what you DO with that degree that counts.</p>
<p>Also, while her plan now is to go to this top grad school, plans change, and she may very well find something else she wants to do.</p>
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<p>Okay, think about it. The smaller schools may not offer very stimulating class discussion . . . but the big schools (with the 200+ class sizes) won’t have any at all!</p>
<p>stradmom-I agree with dogersmom-how do you hold any kind of discussion with 400 students in one room–most likely taught by a TA with no teaching experience on top of that. Lesser known doesn’t always mean kids attending there are stupid. Before coming to CC-have you heard of schools like Carleton, Macalaster, Truman, McGill??</p>
<p>You note class size- did you also look at course selections and the backgrounds/interests/strengths of the profs? The number of them who work in her preferred area? One issue we had was schools that offered D1’s major (a bit obscure) but too often they combined classes in her interest with other majors or even taught by a different specialist. </p>
<p>Often, a smaller school or an honors program offers more access to the profs, more ability to be mentored and ultimately be right for grad schools. If she wants to be a prof or high level researcher, it’s the grad program that counts.</p>
<p>TA’s usually lead break-out discussion groups, but can grade papers and tests. So, yes, you need to consider how great the grad program is.</p>
<p>Of course we knew about Carelton, Mac and McGill. The are considered top schools. Truman was a surprise, as were some barely known regional schools.</p>
<p>Find out if the top state schools offer honors classes. Usually the honors section will be smaller than the regular section. Assignments will be more challenging and time - consuming, but the classes are sometimes regarded as “easier” because serious students find it easier to become engaged in course material if they are getting frequent feed-back from both faculty and like-minded peers.</p>
<p>One problem with “lesser” publics is reduced opportunity to participate in undergrad research, (sometimes) less opportunity to shine through EC participation, and fewer connections through placement and advising offices to internship opportunities. So, if you are considering one of these schools, you should look into opportunities for honors students during the school year and summers, as well as graduate school placement. </p>
<p>Also, since your daughter seems determined to attend one of a handful of grad schools, you ought to find out from the grad schools themselves whether they consider undergrad school important. I would also try to get feed-back from professionals working in the field she seeks to enter.</p>
<p>Lesser known doesn’t mean stupid. But, how easy it is to get in, now there’s a huge hint.</p>
<p>I mean, about the “general population.” Many kids can thrive under a variety of circumstances. Sometimes, handily rise to the top.</p>
<p>In my area, we have a mostly-commuter school that is, nonetheless, beloved. But, any school where there’s an obvious evening and weekend drain, can be tough for kids who want a fuller campus life.</p>
<p>I think the short answer to your question is “no”.
It does not really matter (not very much anyway) where your degree came from. Not if we’re talking about the broad mid-range of schools you’re probably comparing.</p>
<p>I agree with SteveMA that a longer answer would depend on your state.
A few states (notably Maryland, Florida, and perhaps NY and NC) have small public “honors colleges” that are similar to private liberal arts colleges (but much less expensive).
St. Mary’s College of MD and New College of Florida offer much smaller average class sizes that UMCP or the University of Florida, respectively. For a typical liberal arts major, one who is a good student but cannot afford private or OOS costs, I’d be inclined to recommend SMCM or New College over UMCP or UofF. </p>
<p>100-200 students, let alone 200-400, is simply too large to support effective engagement between students and faculty.</p>
<p>“will employers care where her undergraduate degree came from once she has her graduate degree?”</p>
<p>Yes; though dependent on the discipline/subdiscipline/profession.</p>
<p>Superficially, no. But then it depends on what she’s going into. More well-known schools have huge alumni networks and in those schools, you build connections that become invaluable as you enter the job market. For instance, it is well known that Wall Street recruiters recruit straight out of the Ivy League. Students from smaller, less well known schools don’t get that advantage. It’s all about the job prospectus and connections. </p>
<p>If you’re simply talking about education, then no, there’s no difference. Heck, an Ivy League education does not differ much from many top state schools (Berkeley, etc). But it’s the connections that count.</p>
<p>lac is the way to go!
emory and hnery (not emory)
muhlenberg
haverofrd ettc</p>
<p>You have not been specific on what major she is considering. A lot depends on her graduate school admissions test scores, and in some fields it is important to get some research experience as an undergrad as well. </p>
<p>I am going to swim a bit against the current here and say that in a school with lower GPA/SAT/ACT students, the courses are sometimes “dumbed down” to match the student body. So not only do you miss out on good class discussion, but the material presented is less rigorous and in depth than at a school with higher quality students. That can make it hard to get internships, hard to score well on grad school admissions test, and hard to get admitted to prestigious grad school programs.</p>
<p>Also, some of these schools have a very poor (or non-existent) track record for getting students into top graduate school program. It can be hard to pin down the statistics (the schools certainly are not going to post them on their websites!), but if I were you I would be asking some very specific questions about how many students have gone on to grad school and where exactly they have gone from each program in the past 5 years or so. Between the career counseling office, the alumni association, and professors in her preferred major, it may be possible to glean some information on this. Before making any choice I would follow up on this.</p>
<p>You guys are fast! You’ve given me a lot to think about and I will have my daughter read through this thread. We are heading out the door for a play so I look forward to rereading it all when we get back home.</p>
<p>In the meantime, let me put this out there. I am talking about the universities in Florida.<br>
From what I have deducted in the 5 years we have lived here, if you aren’t going to UF or FSU, there is likely something wrong with you. USF & UCF are acceptable to most, however. After that, you must be stupid if you go anywhere else in the state. That’s the vibe I get.</p>
<p>We did look at New College. We both waver on that one. It has some real pluses but there are some drawbacks. One of my daughter’s professors at the community college (DE) does not recommend it and another thinks it is the best college in our state. </p>
<p>Personally, I don’t think our state schools are all that fantastic but I am biased toward my home state. </p>
<p>The school we both really got a good vibe from was Florida Gulf Coast University (it took me three tries to stop typing golf course university 
But to say there is little feedback on this school is an understatement. The only feedback we have gotten is, “but why” from those that can’t understand why she isn’t jumping up and down to go to one of the other four.</p>
<p>Gotta go! I’ll be back tonight to read everything. Thanks for all of the input so far!</p>
<p>“Her graduate degree will be very specialized and there are only a handful of colleges across the nation that offer this degree. Her undergraduate degree is a dime a dozen.”</p>
<p>That doesn’t suggest STEM or banking. The “dime a dozen” hints at a large humantities major. The note that G will be very specialized also makes this different- at one of few colleges that offer that specialty, the contacts of value will be among grad school peers and profs.</p>
<p>If your daughter wants to go on to grad school at a top university, and only a few universities offer the field of interest to her, then she needs to go to an undergrad school where an excellent performance will give her a reasonable chance of admission to a top grad school. Sometimes students from the less-well-known schools get the nod from top grad schools, but in my experience (limited by field, of course), this happens infrequently.</p>
<p>If she wants to go to a top grad school, it will be helpful to her to have an undergrad experience at a school with a flourishing Ph.D. program (or a highly regarded LAC). If you look at the NRC (National Research Council) rankings of schools for Ph.D. research, this will give you an idea where Florida and Florida State stand.</p>
<p>An advantage of going to a school with a strong Ph.D. program is that the caliber of undergrad research that a student can participate in will generally be high. Top LAC’s arrange for their talented undergrads to gain research experience by other means, either collaboration with university researchers during the academic year, or summer research opportunity programs.</p>
<p>Another advantage of a large public research university (and to some extent of the top LAC’s) is that the letters of recommendation for your daughter will come from people that the faculty at the top schools know, from their research. I think this should not be underestimated.</p>
<p>I think you are probably running into the same thing at her CC that you are here, there are defiantly people that think that you can’t possibly get an education at a LAC because they often misunderstand what a LAC stands for. I have even seen people here that thing that everyone that goes to a LAC gets a degree in Liberal Arts :D. I think you will find that there are AMPLE opportunities for research, more so then you will find at major research universities for UG’s at LAC because the schools are smaller, you have more of a chance to get noticed by the profs and the personal touch at the LAC fosters that relationship. Without knowing the specific career track, it’s hard to give suggestions of schools to consider though.</p>
<p>It really depends a lot on the field, I think. In research areas that are equipment-intensive, it is very hard for an LAC to compete directly in research–hence the partnerships with researchers at major universities and the summer research opportunity programs.</p>
<p>In some areas (outside of the physical sciences and engineering), there may be faculty conducting forefront research at LAC’s. One way to find out about this is to look at the publication records of the faculty in the area of interest.</p>
<p>The mid-size public universities may not have a Ph.D. program in the area of interest. At the same time, many of them are not plugged into the research opportunity arrangements for students at top LAC’s. You can succeed from any undergrad school after a top grad program, if you can get into the top grad program to begin with.</p>
<p>I think Quant’s perspective is STEM- and I mostly agree. But, suppose OP’s daughter’s major is history (often called “dime a dozen”) - what research projects do those kids slot into? They can be an assistant of sorts, toting books back to the library, cross-checking citations, etc, but it’s in no way comparable to lab work, where you may hold distinct responsibilities that can be crucial to the whole. And, to some degree, prove out your prep.</p>
<p>What an LAC offers, in theory, and depending on the school and the kid, is the opp to have your own work mentored and presumably, over time, reach a higher level. Eg, in humanities, a prof who knows what research topics or perspectives are valued today, the range of studies already underway and more. There can be more emphasis at an LAC on breadth of opps, more time for individual career planning support, etc. </p>
<p>This doesn’t always hold for “any old LAC.” That’s why I always advocate a closer look.</p>
<p>A smaller program will lead to smaller classes, so make sure that the frequency that those classes and the course offering are equally expansive as at the “best” (most prestigious) school she would otherwise go to. From what I understand also, it’s very important that she do research in her field (this might not be the case in Humanities though… I just don’t know) so if none is being done at her school by her department’s faculty, that’s a huge negative. I don’t know about in Florida but in Michigan there’s at best 5 schools which actually do any research. If she were to go to a school like Eastern Michigan (it’s probably the type of university you’d guess it is) I do believe it would be a huge detriment over going to a school like Michigan, even if EMU has much smaller classes.</p>