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<p>I heard/read that adcoms don’t give much weightage to these kinds of ECs, though they may be paying attention to the fat wallets of the parents. :D</p>
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The five year average is 33%, exactly one third of the class. Does sound like a quota system doesn’t it? But speaking of “the quality of students entering each year”, Andover has had record high number of applicants and lower admit rate each year since 2006. The quality of students entering each year should at least be “stable” if not getting better, so it could be that the competition for admission to top colleges is getting more fierce each year that it’s very difficult to make meaningful difference each year (it does fluctuate from 30% to 36%).</p>
<p>Does Harvard still have Andover and Exeter in one geographic docket?</p>
<p>Have just completed a quick survey of some of HADES. Since 2006 most of them have recorded a steady decline in top ten matriculation. Most grads seem to be retreating to second line liberal arts colleges such as Trinity which seems to be the prep school refuge.
While prep school education still seems to be vastly superior to that at public high schools, the top ten are increasingly concentrating on selecting the best from the publics. The stats out of MIT and Harvard this year serve to illustrate the point. MIT has vastly increased its admission of Publics to more than seventy percent this year. Harvard says th t over 60% of its admits will receive about 40,000 in aid on average which seems to indicate that it must be overwhemingly public.
My conclusion is that while Andover with its clever policy of replicating the “quota system” of URM, legacy and athletes may do better than most bs, its efforts will be increasingly futile. Over the years then my forecast is that Andover will fall from about 30% matriculation to about 15% matriculation at top ten. The others are already at about ten points behind Andover and will also fade though less rapidly.
Andover can work at reducing the pace of decline. It does have very good faculty and programs. Where it fails badly is its poor quality of advising. Incoming students get little or no guidance on how to select courses. Very good students end up with either too weak a portfolio and a high GPA or too difficult and a not good enough GPA. The main reason that Andover stats are holding up is that admissions has been very good at selecting the right combination of girls, athletes, legacies and URMs so that matriculation remains the same despite the rising tide of publics invading the top ten. One should remember that the top ten matriculate about 12-13% as legacies, 30% as URMs and about 15% as athletes. Because of history, Andover has a huge pool of parents who have legacy claims at the top ten and so will continue to be able to tap this resource to buttress its matriculation at the top ten.
A child who is a very good student (at the local public or independent school) but not a legacy, or a URM or a gifted athlete should not take undue risk by going to BS. On the whole by taking prep tests, advanced courses in areas of interest, participating in competitions both national and international on their own initiative, and achieving great GPA and class ranks they will do much better out of public schools and at much lower cost.
There will be special cases such as truly gifted scholars or musicians or athletes who will get great exposure by going to places like Andover. But these will be exceptions. For those at Andover who are not such, their advancement will be more assured if they remained at public schools instead of risking themselves by going there.</p>
<p>Great analysis quantman. :)</p>
<p>good analysis; what about private day schools? Many are included in the most recent ‘best’ Forbes listing. It looks like many of their matriculation stats on L’ville’s matriculation lists are as good if not better than the ten schools’ consortium.</p>
<p>Are they on the upswing or decline re matriculation to HYPMS? Any idea? Any recs about them vs. public school, quantman?</p>
<p>quantman, I think you are making some good points. Off topic, are you an Andover student or parent? Let me ask you a question: Assuming one is convinced that he has no chance getting in HYPMS in Andover but he may do in his public school, given your understanding of all the good and bad of attending Andover, do you still think it’s worthwhile? Would you or would you let your child do it again if given another chance?</p>
<p>How much of those activities may be stage-managed by parents behind the scenes? I’m thinking of activities such as the “service tourism” junkets, whereby the children of the wealthy take care of service opportunities in some exotic locale. </p>
<p>I heard the director of admissions at an Ivy (where I am alum and attended an admission workshop) recently say as follows: you can’t imagine how tired we are of reading about kids who go and build latrines in Guatemala–at this point there must be more toilets than people there.</p>
<p>I am an Andover parent and my child has been accepted at the top ten as well as by some other great schools.</p>
<p>It was my child’s decision to go to Andover from a wonderful private day school where he was at the top of the class, had won the Math Olympiad every year in middle school, was two years ahead in Math and Physics, top line hockey forward, NY State festival player etc etc. I paid the tuition in full. The total cost came to about 50,000 dollars a year- more than the pretax income made by about half of the households in the country.</p>
<p>Was it worth it: That is why I collected all that data. No, if it was my choice I would say no. That was my conclusion after the analysis. I was open minded about Andover and had no biases.</p>
<p>My conclusion is that for a person like my child: Not a potential Nobel winner, not a NHL player but a great all around academic and athlete, its better to stick close to home and do all the things that you can do with your friends in a small town. You will make a top school and will stay a well rounded personality.</p>
<p>Hope this is not rude or disrespectful to many in the Andover community that I have met and respected over the last few years. I mean well and am sure that Andover can become a much better school if it can introspect.</p>
<p>quantman, thanks for being frank and honest. Different opinions/perspectives do make this forum a great resouce to everyone! Can you elaborate what you think Andover should “introspect” on?</p>
<p>Also, “will stay a well rounded personality.” caught my attention. By that, do you mean it’s hard to do that in a school like Andover?</p>
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<p>Grinzing, What kind of ECs did they say they value in the admissions workshop?</p>
<p>quantman, From your child’s stats, it appears that s/he would have done equally well or better at a local day or public school. It sounds a lot better for college admissions to say I’m #1 or 2 out of 500 as opposed to #10 out of 200 plus all the opportunities for ECs available at home.</p>
<p>pulsar, do you really believe that the director of admissions would say anything specific? If he does - the very next year he would face thousands of clones.</p>
<p>I guess that should be something unique… like getting funds to subsidy independent study of Native Indian/Arabic/rare African language for any interested student in your regular local public school. On the other hand, I’m falling short with ECs ideas for BS students since I see a lot of restrictions there. I would share my D’s experience – but that was such a pain that I’m not sure that is actually a good idea.</p>
<p>Yes, the admissions director made a point about how similar the applicants have become but didn’t really harp on uniqueness. There was other themes that came out in this workshop: they look for courage, distinction/passion in one area, and making the most of one’s circumstances (judged differently for a student with every advantage vs. one with less advantages). What I found most interesting from the session is the absolute serendipity of the process–all this planning, belaboring of schools, steering kids . . . forgetaboutit!!! So much is driven by factors outside of any student’s control. They gave examples from real applicants where every one of them should have gotten and yet the school just did not have the room to take them. So the difference between an acceptance and rejection boiled down to unbelievably minor distinctions (and gut reactions that you just can’t plan for/away).</p>
<p>The randomness of the elite college acceptance is one reason I think if you have the opportunity to attend an elite bs, you have to grab it.</p>
<p>grinzing, mashaa: Great posts with insights into the dark world of BS / College admissions. :)</p>
<p>thanks so much for the insight from the admissions office. that has a big impact for us.
any other admissions office input?</p>
<p>Grinzing - thanks for weighing in on “cookie cutter” EC experiences. The trend towards parent-driven or school-driven exotic experiences becomes monotonous in a pile of applications that are full of the same. Colleges look for something that stands out about the student and is a gateway to understanding them as a person - a passion that is long term, sustainable, and student driven. Something they remember about the person even after reading thousands of other files. (Can you imagine the fatigue at the end of the process?)</p>
<p>quantman - thank you for your honest assessment of your son’s experience and the cost benefit analysis in general about BS vs. Public School. It’s a refreshing point of view.</p>
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Anyone else has any thoughts/comments on this?</p>
<p>Earlier in this thread I argued against primarily focusing on BS as a path to collegiate nirvana. That view is, in my opinion, far too narrow. However, the flip side is true as well. Minimizing the value of BS and maximizing that of other secondary school paths can also be overstated, particularly when the same narrow metrics are used. </p>
<p>There are some huge holes in quantman’s analysis. For instance, on what basis does he project Andover’s tremendous decline in college placement? It’s certainly not a linear regression as there is nothing in recent data to suggest that it is true. While I haven’t looked at any other schools, the data presented here showed that Andover has held relatively steady in recent years and last year had probably its strongest year in the last decade. In fact, one poster (incorrectly, I believe) even asserted that the stability of the numbers was indicative of a “quota for feeder schools.” Projecting a decline may be correct (the great thing about forecasting is we all can take a shot at it and some of us will be right), but it is not so much a quantitative analysis as a subjective one. </p>
<p>Second, as for the reason PA’s numbers may not experience the same rate of decline as others, quantman asserts that it is due to a “clever policy of replicating the ‘quota system’ of URM, legacy and athletes.” Why is it clever? The implication is that Andover is trying to mold itself into a diverse educational institution not for the value it provides in a secondary school environment, but to create a mix that will appeal to top universities in order to maintain its matriculation stats. I’m sure many will perceive me as naive, but I don’t believe that cynical perspective - or the loaded term he used in describing it. The people I met at Andover seemed legitimately committed to the educational value of a diverse community. I respect them for that.</p>
<p>Third, while it is true that the majority of MIT students come from public high schools, it is still well below the percentage of American students that attend public schools. He also failed to point out that MIT rejected more than 80% of the valedictorians that applied. Harvard and Yale probably rejected even greater proportions. Staying to be a superstar in the local public high school is no guarantee of anything either. Furthermore, I know that our well above average public school system will be seeing cuts this year to many programs for more advanced students. The common message is, if your child needs programs beyond what we can afford, they are available on your dime. From what I’ve read in various newspapers that is more the norm than the exception.</p>
<p>Fourth, when looking at the $50K Andover price tag (which must have included some nice extras as the tuition, room and board plus books was about $41K this year), one should do an apples to apples comparison. Despite the recommendation that people send their children to local public schools, Quantman’s son was attending a “wonderful private day school.” Thus the apples-to-apples comparison would be to compare PA to the cost of a private day school (plus, quite possibly, significant outlays for junior hockey if the day school doesn’t have a strong program and his son wanted to continue playing). Depending on location, quality and supply/demand, that could rapidly approach Andover’s costs.</p>
<p>Fifth, while being involved with some ECs can be hard at boarding school without the benefit of a soccer mom or dad to provide transportation, there are quite exhaustive offerings, including social service commitments. PA reaches out to recruit students to participate in programs in the nearby old industrial cities of Lawrence and Lowell. Other than the lack of a marching band (a huge time commitment at our high school in order to participate at a championship level), I’m hard pressed to come up with a significant EC available at our public school that isn’t available at PA. On the other hand, I know of ECs at PA that don’t exist in most or even all public schools. My daughter was a prefect with significant responsibility for enforcing rules and helping transition a dozen freshman girls (and, based on that experience, she will hold a similar position of responsibility at her university next year as a sophomore). Many other boarding school activities are far more student driven than I’ve seen in any public school. Using whatever definition of “well-rounded” you prefer, it’s quite possible for a student to remain so or even remove the square corners he/she entered with at Andover.</p>
<p>Lastly, I have heard some complaints such as quantman’s about advising and I understand them (although if you heard some of what passes for counseling in our local high school you’d be downright angry). Like advising at the college level, I suspect it is uneven as faculty members have different levels of competence or assign it different levels of importance. However, there are many resources available. Don’t think you are getting sufficient insight from your advisor, then request a new one. If positioning for college admission is your thing, then wander into the college counseling office and ask for time with one of the experienced counselors. They have a good sense of what constitutes an attractive admissions profile. It may just require a little effort on the part of the student, but the resources are there.</p>
<p>Boarding school will be right for some kids. Day school will be right for others. Public school for yet a third group. In fact, many can thrive in any of those environments. Students will also matriculate to top colleges from all of them. In my daughter’s case, going to Andover was a net plus on so many levels. Quantman does not believe the same for his son. That’s fine. Each student and family should assess the benefits and costs of all their options and make the decision that works for them. It won’t be the same for all and, given the importance of those adolescent years combined with the difficulty of projecting the future, it should be based on far more than the likelihood of getting into an Ivy+SM institution. That’s why blanket statements like, “For those at Andover who are not [superstars], their advancement will be more assured if they remained at public schools instead of risking themselves by going there” is no more valid than “Go to Andover because that’s your best bet to get into an Ivy.” Not only are they not universally true, but, more importantly, they based on an excessively narrow definition of advancement.</p>