<p>I did not say that we did not find any added value of a BS. My daughter really likes her friends there; including many internationals. And she really values that.
Next, please dont worry about wasted resources. Why do you think that your son is/was not wasting resources? How can you judge? My daughter contributed a lot to her school, including some international awards and real support for her friends. </p>
<p>I just tried to make a point that from my limited experience (Im also a professor in a good university, so Im also talking about my students) I think that there are public schools that can give a very good education. I want to be clear: Im talking about education, not prestige or connections, and not about the value of being exposed to stress. BTW, my older daughter was never stressed in Princeton as well. And this is what makes me happy, not her grades.</p>
<p>This is only my opinion. If your goal is to get into a good college you can do well attending a good public school. If your goal is to learn you even dont need to go to school at all, you can educate yourself. If your goal is to get a new experience and to test yourself a boarding school is a good try. By you I mean a kid, not his parents.</p>
<p>In terms of college placement, a more valid question is: does boarding school reduce one’s chance of getting into a selective college one would be able to get into had they stayed in a good public school? If so, to what extent? Would it still be justifiable to let the kids go to a boarding school? If all students admitted to an MIT are equally prepared, or statistically there’s no correlation between their readiness and their high school background, if they are already the person before they start their high school, I’d seriously doubt if BS has any value at all. </p>
<p>While I appreciate the fact that people on this board come from different background and have different point of views, it’s amazing that we are so often reaching conclusions that don’t mean anything any more, which is A=B=C=D=E…</p>
<p>mashaa, you didn’t mention any “added value” in your earlier posting. And I think being unhappy and feeling it’s unworthy is the biggest waste of any experience. I do respect your point of view.</p>
<p>Benley, I never said “unhappy”, I said “happier”. It’s very different (like A=B). Attending a BS was completely my daughter’s choice (she just informed us when she got accepted and we let her go); and she never regretted about that choice. She just does not appreciate the level of competitiveness in her school. I also believe that good education is not about competitiveness.</p>
<p>mashaa, with your international background and being a college prof, your kids have many, many benefits that the average kid doesn’t have public school or bs.</p>
<p>The different perspectives are interesting here. While I agree that a good education is not dependent on competitiveness, there are kids (dare I venture boys more than girls?) who thrive on competitiveness, learn from it, push themselves harder because of it. My son is like that–and one of our main reasons for applying to bs was because in my town, except in some sports, competitiveness in a kid is seen as mostly negative (might be a Midwest thing). I’m not talking about back-biting, ruthless, anything-goes, nasty competitiveness here–but the inborn desire to continually do better the next time and the pleasure (and pain) that comes from that.</p>
<p>You make a good point. At the MIT receptions we tell admitted students to focus on enjoying the experience - because MIT is not concerned about keeping class ranks, etc. The students there are some of the best and brightest in the country and compete against personal bests, rather than each other. The ones that compete because they need to be “top dog” do worse because - let’s face it - everyone can’t be #1 and once inside, no one really cares.</p>
<p>MIT is built on a collaborative environment since that’s the way many science and technology breakthroughs occurs. And I remember a large number of assignments being “team” based.</p>
<p>So students or parents (some of whom I’ve seen on these boards) who take the word “competitive” to a whole new level, are often left scratching their heads when they don’t get into their “must have” college choices.</p>
<p>Same with boarding school. It’s about “experience” and maximizing your potential. Those students that get that early, do best.</p>
<p>I can say that I was in a great public school through middle school (back in the stone ages) and it was a guidance counselor that introduced me to Exeter because gifted education ran out at 9th grade in my city and he was concerned I would be bored. He was right - I would have been - but I’ve recently been in touch with old classmates who did go on to the public high school and they’ve all done well, gone on to top colleges like Princeton and Stanford.</p>
<p>It’s the kid and their raw material that makes the difference. Either they have it, or they don’t. Sending them to BS is a great “prep” for those who are close - and a disaster for those who are expecting the school to “clean them up” or equip them with magic wands :-)</p>
<p>I’m afraid I have to disagree with one of your basic premises: The kids I see that get into MIT - would have gotten there from anywhere.</p>
<p>Maybe that’s true for the students you personally have seen, but I find it hard to believe that it’s true in general.</p>
<p>And although I think that statement does apply to MIT more so than to HYPS (for example), I simply don’t agree with it. There are many aspects of the education that a student receives in high school that makes them more likely to be admitted to a very selective college. Some of those aspects include the ability to take more demanding classes with brighter classmates, access to a greater variety of extracurricular activities, and let’s face it, more effective college placement staff. Obviously there are other aspects, but I’m sure you all get the idea. Teenagers are still too young that they can’t still be significantly changed by their experiences.</p>
<p>Certainly the single most important factor for college admission are a particular student’s characteristics upon entering high school whether it be public, private day, or boarding, but certainly that student’s high school experience has to have some effect on those admission chances. And certainly that high school experience has to be affected somewhat differently by the particular high school attended. Sometimes choices do matter. It can’t all depend on the student alone, the environment must affect the odds somewhat.</p>
<p>And for any particular student, the best choice will vary (my older son has chosen to attend a selective public school next year - from our current perspective this appears to be the right choice, and I certainly hope it turns out that way - sometimes being a parent requires a lot of faith). But in general, I do believe that boarding schools and private day schools are better choices for students than normal public schools.</p>
<p>I agree, “competitiveness” was not a correct term, actually competitiveness very often has a positive effect on education; I should say “obsession” instead.</p>
<p>I did limit it to MIT because it’s the one I work with the most, but my husband’s experiences with med school applicants seems to run along the same grounds. PS students are at a disadvantage only in that sometimes the options are not presented to them early enough. BS for not recognizing that the pool of applicants is very diverse and given that the vast majority of applicants for NE schools come from the west and east coast - they’re now in a bigger pond than had they stayed home.</p>
<p>More often than not - the students abilities and potential for college success can be seen starting in middle school (some, not all) If they don’t have it by then, no amount of school change is going to make it up for most of them. What I mean is - independence, drive, motivation, proactivity, etc. Many of those students are already thinking about college and are engaged in activities to enhance that. Remember, most colleges have become so competitive that they look for items on the application that shows the student went well beyond what was handed to them. The very traits that make them attractive BS candidates.</p>
<p>Stuck in a lousy public school system my daughter enrolled in an Alvin Ailey summer program (and told us after the fact), found a debate coach, signed up for a summer college class after finding out the teacher had used up the school funds on lower ranked students. I’ve had rural kids come in with amazing stories where they had to drive for hours to get something they didn’t get at home. They had to jump through higher hoops.</p>
<p>And yes - it is hard to compete with Boarding Schools where class sizes are 12 (at my daughter’s new school Latin class will be 5-6 students) versus her current PS class size of 33. But not insurmountable if she stayed home.</p>
<p>Still - my reasoning stands. Boarding school enhances an already attractive candidate - it doesn’t make one where none exists. Which may be the appeal for many students - where the goals are shared. My daughter liked the idea that she could be smart - and she didn’t have to hide it. She wanted to be pushed beyond the current boundaries and going away was just one more adventure to test her independence before college.</p>
<p>I still believe that while a few students will gain an “edge” they didn’t have before from boarding school, many similarly credentialed students can and will get to those colleges without it. And even though I’m a boarding school alum, I find that some of those candidates, in general, come off as more “artificial” in an interview then PS students still feeling their way through the system. It’s as if they “know the game” and can’t get off the script. Not all - some - but enough for me to say parents should pick schools for their child’s specific needs and not make specific high level colleges a primary reason - because there are no “refunds” when you find out it’s not a golden ticket.</p>
<p>Massha, I know I might’ve sounded critical, but I honestly want to know about your daughter’s experience at Andover and I promise I won’t judge. What did you really mean by “obsession”, which apparently turned both you and your daughter off?</p>
<p>you can see hat I’m relatively new to CC posts. My initial intention was not to prove something, but just to share my thoughts and maybe experience (overall positive with every school that my kids attended; we were lucky; and they attended 4 different high schools). My main point was that I think there are very good public schools as well. But after your comment "waste of the school’s resources for Andover to invest in a family that doesn’t appreciate its value” I have nothing else to tell you. Sorry. </p>
<p>Finally, please do not read what was not written. Neither I nor my daughter was turned off. Overall, she likes her experience in Andover. Good luck to your son, I’m sure he will be happy and hopefully a successful investment for Andover.</p>
<p>“I do think that a good public school is a better choice for a kid who does want to study and explore, but does not want to be extremely competitive/stressed out for 1-4 years in BS.”</p>
<p>Every kid that is in bs is not extremely competitive/stressed for 1-4 years. For my d, I believe that all will not be easy as in her current high school, but all kids do not stress about grades and dont get into the competitive games. After being home-schooled, with no grades for 3 years my d’s attitude is “it’s me against the material”.</p>
<p>Do grades matter, yes and no. She will do fine with a B average, maybe A’s in her favorite humanities class and yes maybe a C in science. Will I freak out NO!</p>
<p>A lot of pressure comes from the home. I believe that bs is not a prison, if after a year my d does not like bs, she could come home. Case closed, no shame.</p>
<p>I think a child’s experiences, good or bad stem from what the child is or isnt ready for. Let them try.</p>
<p>I went back and ran through all the posts and I think we’re down to a matter of semantics - because we’re all saying the same thing . . . </p>
<p>It depends on the kid
the school
the circumstances.</p>
<p>One kid can do marvelously well at BS, another poorly at the same school even if they started with similar “stats.”</p>
<p>Same with public school.</p>
<p>So we’re back to the age old idea of “fit” being the ideal place to start.</p>
<p>I believe that boarding schools are self-selecting. They tend to choose students (with some well-known legacy exceptions) who would do well even if they were not admitted. And similarly bright kids in public schools seem to find a good balance of academic challenge and ec’s even if not offered by the district because they’re more aware of the “goal” than their peers. </p>
<p>It’s the higher order thinking issue - key to college admissions success.</p>
<p>So don’t despair regardless of the choice. Every kid will find their right path if we stop adding our own adult values and aspirations into the mix.</p>
<p>“And similarly bright kids in public schools seem to find a good balance of academic challenge and ec’s even if not offered by the district because they’re more aware of the “goal” than their peers.”</p>
<p>I believe there is more to this than initiative. Yes, bright kids have a better shot, but bright kids with a parent available to drive them to enrichment often, can pay for any and all enrichment, and who know which contests to enter and which activities look better on paper are in a better position than those whose parents both work full-time or a single parent etc. So it’s not just initiative, many are pre-disposed due to circumstances beyond their control. I know this isn’t really what the poster is after, but I do feel that this prevailing attitude creates an unearned self-satisfaction that I’ve seen on some campuses. There are plenty of kids who would thrive at BS who never even consider it OR who feel it’s out of reach. It takes more than higher order thinking skills.</p>
<p>mashaa,
If you could go back and re-read your own post (post #76) “from a distance” - pretending you are reading someone else’s post, you might be able to understand where my comments on it came from. The way you described your two daughters’ experience gave me a strong impression that at least to you, Andover is really nothing more than a good public school (except your second daughter could be “happier” in a public school), which I happen to disagree.</p>
<p>Did I “read what was not written”? You clearly indicated that neither your daughter nor you liked the “obsession” (self-corrected from “competitiveness” you said earlier) in Andover. Was “turned off” too strong? Should I use “dislike”? - my bad.</p>
<p>I am just asking you to clarify on some statement you have made. Many adult posters make some claims and then support them with specifics. That’s all I am asking. In the end, as many have suggested, maybe we can conclude using “fit theory”?</p>
<p>I know people often want to use excuses and put “bows” and “caveats” on things, but good grief sometimes I just want to tear my hair out. “I” was one of those inner city kids with no money and parents who both worked and no resources and I still found a way - bus, bike, feet, library. And my thoughts were very clear - the kids most likely to be candidates for top colleges (regardless of background) are those who figure it out. IT IS a higher order thinking issue - especially in an age where students - even poor ones - are exposed to more than we were as kids. So it’s “easier” to see the light now than it was then.</p>
<p>I’ve been doing BS and college interviews for more than 30 years and the trends are firm - a poor rural farm kid is often more compelling than a rich private school kid because that kid in front of me had to “figure it out”, find a way to get to the resource even if it was hours away, etc. Those kids will do well with or without BS. The BS kids just show up thinking they are already “ready”. </p>
<p>Also - I watched an extremely bright kid from a well heeled school whose family ran a business get turned down, while a rural kid who’s activities were limited to farming and farming related clubs (Future Farmers of America) get a nod. Both white males. Because the former only had school related EC’s and never held a job or did scouting or volunteer work. While the latter had to make do with less and actually did more with his resources (spotty unreliable internet, library a long way away, movie theaters 2 hour drive away, etc.) I lived on a Navajo reservation for a while to do research - 2.5 hour drive to the nearest grocery store. Kids there were reading above grade level. Why? Grandparents and extended family members insisted they read to elders out loud every night. I showed up with a box of the “latest” fiction and what got taken first was nonfiction - by the teen girls, no less.</p>
<p>So I look for kids like the one’s in the Andover admit profile - not all of whom had money and resources and parents that paid for or took them to activities. But they are all still amazing.</p>
<p>We can’t make assumptions and just excuse someone’s failures by saying someone else had resources. Those kids with resources are sometimes - IMHO - the least proactive and the most clueless about the world beyond their own boundaries.</p>
<p>I’m not buying the poor pitiful disadvantage issue because those aren’t the kids/parents we are talking about. That’s a whole other thread. My uneducated mother came home bone weary and she still find the time to help us and then, when we were teens, went to community college. We did homework together. So the “knowledge” of college and BS, and the “money” wasn’t there - the drive and motivation were. Most (not all) kids you describe would crash and burn, frankly, at BS. Because if they are that deprived of any input or resources, BS isn’t going to suddenly clean it up.</p>
<p>Exie, our stories are not dissimilar but I think you /we are still the exception not the rule. I wish you were right. I re-entered this whole thing with a pretty open mind, but have come away believing that while there are many deserving kids in these schools, the game is still rigged. You may be doing your best and are a success story but that doesn’t mean that’s the prevailing wind. One particular HADES school visit comes to mind. Tour guide was, sadly, the BS stereotype: bragging about being a triple legacy, having private SSAT/SAT tutors and a driver to take them to their favorite activity 40 miles away every day, was very attractive and, after an hour conversation about classics, etc. had showed that they just weren’t that bright. Another tour (where we’ll be) was not like this at all, but the experience was still revealing. If you’re an FA/inner city kid, you still have to be a lot more unique than a legacy full pay. You are were and there are many others, but as endowments shrink…</p>