@Hunt The point isn’t “math”… the point is you can feel really good and successful without actually having the skills to back it up. We worry a whole heck of a lot about the self-esteem of our American kids and they feel more confident than ever despite international performance. If you are in the business of employing 20-somethings, you’d see a lot of resentment from kids who are full of confidence and FEEL like they’ve worked hard and deserve top dollar for entry level work when they simply don’t have the skills and experience to back it up.
No, to me, the perfect college student is one who has recovered from enough failures to know they can do it. They feel confident enough to approach professors for help or to offer ideas but not so much that they are pulling “C’s” and still seeing themselves as the smartest kid in the class…“you know, if I actually tried.”
Hey, I go that beat! I was very academically successful in college, too, but I wasn’t even self-confident! Self-confidence and success may correlate, but you can be one without the other.
And yeah, I wasn’t athletic but I was a Girl Scout.
Maybe self-knowledge would be more valuable than self-confidence.
Students who know what situations, both academic and non-academic, they can cope with on their own and what situations they may need help with have an advantage, I think.
I’m not convinced self-confidence is correlated with academic success, much less a precondition for it or a predictor of it. I’ve observed in my own students that some of the most self-confident are not the most capable; they’re simply the ones with the highest opinions of themselves, and in some cases that opinion is, well let’s just say a little untethered from reality. Meanwhile, in almost every class there’s a quiet, tentative, mousy, seemingly self-doubting student who ends up with one of the highest scores on the final exam. In part it may be that the self-doubter simply works harder to compensate for her perceived inadequacies (and I say “her” by design; although this phenomenon crosses genders, my anecdotal experience suggests that it’s more often women who are less self-confident, while a larger fraction of the men are more self-confident, or at least appear so because they’ve been conditioned to put on that appearance). Or it could be that some of the more self-confident don’t work as hard because they’re so enamored of their own abilities that they think they’ll be successful without putting in the hard work. To be clear, though, I’m not saying that the less self-confident always do better; only that I’m not persuaded they do worse, on average.
There’s a rich psychological literature on the so-called “imposter syndrome”–the belief held by many highly successful people that they’re frauds, that they aren’t nearly as talented as others give them credit for, that their success is due to good luck, good timing, their own deceit, someone else’s mistake, mentors looking out for them and giving them special breaks, etc.-- basically anything other than their own talent and hard work. Some studies estimate that as many as 40% of highly successful people exhibit the imposter syndrome, and as many as 70% of all people feel like frauds at some point in their lives. The literature isn’t completely consistent, but it’s been argued the imposter syndrome is especially common among the most highly accomplished, people in creative professions, graduate students and tenure-track faculty, young scientists, and successful women (though other studies claim the phenomenon affects men and women equally). Even Albert Einstein, by any measure one of the most brilliant and accomplished humans of the last century, apparently was plagued by self-doubt, confiding to a friend shortly before his death that “the exaggerated esteem in which my lifework is held makes me very ill at ease. I feel compelled to think of myself as an involuntary swindler.” (quoted in Jim Holt, 'The Time Bandits," The New Yorker, Feb. 28, 2005).
One question: by “success in college,” do we mean “grades in college?” If that’s the definition, I think self-confidence is less important. If it’s defined more broadly, then I think self-confidence is pretty important.
I was wondering when the impostor syndrome would be mentioned! To add to the comments from @bclintonk here are some links showing how many who would be considered successful are self-doubting.
^I love post #27
The more knowledge you have, the more options you see in every solution, the more doubt you have. People tend to trust those who take time to come up with the best solution and NOT trust others who always seem to know the best solution right away.
I saw another study somewhere else (can’t remember where) that indicated a correlation between high levels of self-confidence and academic mediocrity. The best students are often somewhat anxious and insecure, perhaps because they are not as easy on themselves.
Thanks for the citation, NJSue. This is consistent with my anecdotal observations based on 20+ years of teaching at the university level, as related in post #24. I’m happy to see empirical confirmation.
I thought you left out the best line from the passage you quoted, however:
i also thought the gender comparison was interesting and helpful:
Ouch! As a male, that hurts. But it is what I observe in my classrooms.
As previous folks have mentioned, self-confidence is one thing, actual competence is another. So, there needs to be a nexus between the former and the later. I do agree, that a strong ethic combined with an organic passion for the experience equate to high productivity.
US kids tend to be a bit more animated about their actual skill sets and knowledge…and at times, that can be a negative…
I don’t think that self-confidence necessarily equals success in college. Fear of failure can be a huge motivator to study hard and get top grades. (That’s how I view success in college, although surely others on this board will view inherent enjoyment and relationships, not grades, as signs of success.)
@digmedia It’s wonderful you had all those experiences with your son while he was growing up. There are some kids that don’t know the love and support (and your case joint adventure!) from parents. That will set him up for successful relationships and a happier life. You done good.
I was so glad to stumble across this topic. I’ve don’t think of my D as self-confident but instead as independent. This summer she started an organization to give visitors to Waikiki an opportunity to participate in beach clean-ups. She made the website, created marketing materials, fund-raised, got the permits/volunteers/sponsors, and told us as an afterthought. Her first clean-up is in a few hours. She is not completely confident about it being successful, but is independent enough to follow-though despite naysayers (which I’m sorry to say included me).
So independent vs. self-confident, semantics or something altogether different?
palm715, my D did something similar and her first event was today as well. She did many of the same things as your D. Despite a slow start to the day, it was a rousing success as far as her target group-elementary school students, were concerned. More importantly, she brought adults together who it turned out, had resources they could share to improve their own programs and lives. One of them will now turn to help other young people using the new resources she learned about. It was worth all the angst she had going in.
But yes, she’s independent and driven, that’s for sure. But she’s never explored a cave or done any serious outdoor activity-what helped her along was our encouragement and support for what she DID do. THAT’S where it comes from, not being outside. She’s now collapsed on her bed in exhaustion. We’re treating her to dinner of her choice, and she’ll wait a whole day before planning NEXT week’s workshop-for kids her own age.
@sseamom, one of my favorite things about CC is to hear about all the different success stories! Congratulations to your daughter! Your reward sounds exactly like what we were planning, her favorite dinner. She just spent five plus hours in the blazing sun trying to convince tourists to leave Hawaii cleaner than they found it. She may be so exhausted she’ll require dinner in bed!
@palm715, mine DID require we bring her meal home! She got up long enough to eat and is back in bed. H and I are going to go a little further afield to eat, but I think we’ll ALL sleep well tonight. Congrats to your D on HER project!
