There are several factors here: first, recruited athletes are, on average, weaker academically than other students because the Ivy League Academic Index approach allows them to be. They’re not a lot weaker (except for a few of them), but they are weaker. Second, athletes are extremely busy with their sports, and this tends to make them seek gut courses, which is understandable. Finally, and this is the most important, there are social structures that lead to bad behavior, including heavy drinking and the like, and these structures are heavily populated by athletes. This includes a couple of frats, for example.</p>
<p>As I said, there are plenty of athletes for whom this isn’t true. But there are enough for whom it is true that it is a noticeable factor, and always has been. It’s probably less of a factor than it is at other colleges, where athletes are treated by everybody as gods among men.</p>
<p>In April I had the pleasure of speaking with a student/athlete who is now a senior and team captain at one of Yale’s peers. He was recruited by HPS, etc. Yale was one of his top choices, but they didn’t offer support. He told me his ACT score, and I just checked and see that it was above Yale’s 50% median. I’m sure his HS grades were stellar.</p>
<p>He’ll soon be graduating with honors from one of the remaining HYPS schools.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Use higher stat recruits to balance lower stat recruits, or</p></li>
<li><p>Give an admission preference to fully qualified applicants who happen to have the athletic skills necessary to help Yale’s teams, or</p></li>
<li><p>Ignore an applicant’s athletic potential in the admissions process.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Personally, I’d prefer all Ivies adopt option #2. I don’t like the idea of athletes diluting a school’s academic standards. </p>
<p>Would you agree it would benefit Yale and its student body to give an admissions preference to fully qualified applicants who possess superior athletic skills, such as the student I mentioned in post 22?</p>
<p>I think it’s likely that Yale already does consider athletic activities as extracurriculars for non-recruited athletes, just as it considers lots of other ECs. Are you suggesting that Yale (and the other Ivies) should do this in place of recruiting athletes with lower academic achievements? It would be OK with me, but don’t expect the Harvard-Yale football game to be very exciting once this is accomplished.</p>
<p>No. I’m only suggesting that Yale should actively recruit athletes who are academically fully qualified.</p>
<p>In my example in post 22, the potential applicant was academically qualified, would have helped the team, and reached out to the coach, but the coach was unwilling to offer support.</p>
<p>sherpa, is it possible the coach had already identified the recruits for that class? I’ve got a bit of an “inside track” to a couple of sports at Yale, and the student you’re describing is pretty much what they look for, at least in the sports I know best. And all of Yale does not believe jocks are dumb. Levin certainly gave little respect, but he does not represent all views present there.</p>
<p>For our K1…and the recruiting class 2 years ago
EVERY one of them had stellar stellar grades, scores and stats…and amazing ECs in fact one EC 6 of them had in common (not the sport)
Why people think Yale admits kids without the grades/scores etc is beyond me. </p>
<p>As far as recruiting class size…the coach brought in 3x as many as LLs available…
Yale can have the cream of the crop of scholar-athletes–and choose the scholar part ! and they choose carefully.
Its no secret Levin wasn’t a fan.</p>
<p>Yale enjoys the notoriety of NOT using all of the slots. Teams suffer. The students end up at HP</p>
<p>While it is reasonable to criticize an individual that is academically unqualified; it’s unfair to denigrate large numbers of students based on what activities they participate in. Of the three large groups of applicants that receive preferences in admissions, athletes are the only cohort that receives the benefit primarily because of their own talent and motivation. The other two groups benefit from heredity and not individual achievement. </p>
<p>Although race may be a bigger boost in admissions than athletic prowess, imagine the reaction if a student or faculty member made a comment about undeserving minorities at Yale. Consider how offensive it would be to most people if one were to take post #21 and substitute a particular race for athlete and affirmative action for academic index. Using stereotypes is unfair and offensive to those of us that believe that people should be judged on their own merits and not based on preconceived notions. </p>
<p>Several of my family members have been, are now, or soon will be D1 athletes. Although my family has more high school All-Americans than valedictorians, I believe each of us had grades and test scores in the top quarter of accepted applicants at our respective undergraduate schools. Although the required labs made being a STEMS major difficult, my athletic family members that chose to study math and science either were accepted into top graduate schools or expect to do so after graduation.</p>
<p>Occasional jokes about dumb jocks are fine. The problem occurs when some students and faculty treat athletes as lesser members of the community. Clearly some athletes are deserving of scorn, but it’s unfair to assume that those students whose hard work and God-given talent extends to both academic and athletic endeavors aren’t worthy of acceptance.</p>
Because Yale does this, especially for top sports like football. There is a whole process in place to enable Ivy schools to do this. In fact, the big complaint about Levin was that he didn’t let Yale do it enough.</p>
<p>
Even at Yale, where most athletes are very good students, there have been repeated incidents involving athlete-heavy frats. This has an impact over time. At other colleges, athletes are often essentially hired gladiators who are far, far below average in academic abilities. I’m very glad that the Ivies decided not to pursue that course.</p>
<p>What is interesting to me is that it seems to be “politically correct” to scorn those who are scholar-athletes…</p>
<p>yet if one were to mock/scorn a mousey couch potato
or the music geek
or avid gamer</p>
<p>who aren’t physically fit even being a young 18-21 yr old…</p>
<p>and only “got in” because they play the cello, etc…people would be yelling.</p>
<p>Hunt…given the quality of football at Yale, the rumors of good athletes with less than stellar grades seem rather unlikely.
With the AI and the Ivies looking over each others shoulder I think this is more speculation or sour grapes by parents</p>
No. The student initiated contact prior to the start of the recruiting season. I’m friendly with this student’s mother, so I asked her for more info. The student sent Y coach an academic/athletic resume in January of junior year and visited unofficially in February. The coach was professional but unwilling to engage in specific discussions, unlike the coaches at HPS, Columbia, Brown, and Penn.</p>
<p>Student remained “on the fence” waiting for July and the official recruiting season. When there was no word from Y in July, he chose between the others.</p>
<p>Looking at Yale’s roster in the sport, it appears the coach either had no slots or was unwilling to use them. The team seems to be mostly comprised of walk-ons.</p>
<p>I didn’t intend to have this turn into a Yale bashing thread. I think Yale is great, and I applaud them for maintaining their academic standards.</p>
<p>Edit to add: the mom tells me the student had also received a national award for an unrelated EC. Maybe that was the problem. [/sarcasm]</p>
And yet, it’s well known. Kind of pathetic, really.</p>
<p>I hear more complaints about obnoxious jocks than about dumb jocks. As I said before, there are some social structures that, unfortunately, reinforce bad behavior among certain groups of athletes.</p>
<p>I should add that that there are smart kids on the football team, with sterling personal qualities. I knew one quite well in recent years. But he wasn’t in DKE.</p>
<p>The academic athlete is fading - at least when you look at my son’s HS baseball team. He is the only one (of about a dozen who could make it talent-wise) who could even consider Ivy/NESCAC. He is in a large public HS in suburban NY.</p>
<p>Yale’s foundation was to train up godly men, leaders in their churches, communities, businesses…
They all played some sport
They all attended chapel</p>
<p>It was about being the best they could be… mind, body and spirit</p>