<p>madville, you made a good point. We are the outsiders looking in right now. </p>
<p>DD went to this HS full of VERY rich kids. One would sense the difference in the way they dress and talk. DD said some of the girls wear clothes cost $300 to $400 as every day school clothes. We spend probably half of that in a year for our kids’ clothes (don’t laught at us now). </p>
<p>One way to get “in” is by attending one of the very best universities, IMHO. Of course, whether a person wants to get “in” or not is purely a personal decision.</p>
<p>madville, as you probably already know, what you say lines up with what the Krueger found in his study - that attending prestigious colleges provides the most benefits for those in lower socioeconomic classes.
My siblings and I come from very low income family. I have two brothers who went Ivy (on full scholarships) and both have done well. I went to state u and also did well. I guess I’m the exception…<br>
I absolutely understand why some folks think it’s important to attend an elite institution. What I don’t like is the crazy pressure it puts on high school kids to gain admission to these schools. The kids who don’t get in end up feeling like failures - at least in the short term. And the schools they do choose to go to get very little respect from fellow peers and parents. There are SOOO many colleges out there with quality programs. The level of “elite school” obsession seen on these boards (from some students and some parents) is unhealthy.<br>
What’s interesting though is to see honest opinions come out on public universities. You don’t hear this talk much at parties because everyone knows how offensive it can be (mc-education or analogies to going to a restaurant for burgers/chicken nuggets and big-screen sports). In real life, at an upper-crust party, you get quiet nods, lack of eye contact, and quick changes of subjects when the topic comes up. So you can tell from the body language but not from any direct comments. The words really come rolling out on these anonymous boards though!</p>
<p>I think that one of the main differences between elite schools and non-elite ones is that the former are breeding grounds for a certain intellectual consciousness and personal taste (more so than the latter anyway). For example, the gender norms among the academically elite are different. Their dress style is different (I could so tell the difference between a Northwestern girl and a state school girl wearing high heels). In conversation and even when crossing paths on campus, I could tell that Northwestern students are more sensitive towards class, racial, sexual inequalities. For example, very few people here wear Abercrombie and Fitch (<em>vomit</em>). Their degree of confidence is sincere and genuine. For example, when a non-Northwestern student walks around campus, they look up no matter what (because they buy into this false notion of confidence that compels them to do that). A Northwestern student, on the other hand, would look towards the ground even when they’re not intimidated, a deliberate choice not to have a power struggle with the person they’re crossing paths with. You should experience it for yourself. The sensitivity, compassion, and consciousness that comes across is so intensely moving and real. Maybe they came to the school with those tastes and sensitivities or maybe they acquired it from being around other people disposed to acquiring them (thus creating norms). But in any case, elite school students are just different, though not necessarily more likely to be financially successful (I’d say that among the roughly 600 people in my immediate social network, the elite school ones are less money hungry in the first place, even the poor ones).</p>
<p>sanjenferrer" re: your entire post. <em>Vomit</em>
So, those guys on the Geico commecial…state school grads right? That’s worse than the chicken nuggets and big screen sports analogy.<br>
What state school are you talking about?
Unbelievable what you read on these boards…</p>
<p>Seeing as I nearly was consigned to a safety school I wasn’t excited about by about hairlength’s shave (yes I realise it wasn’t a true safety) I am highly sympathetic if not empathetic to individuals who don’t make it to schools of reputation. Initially, I would hear of rather good friends [not deep/intimate relationships but friendly cordial ones with lots of talk] who were planning to go to state colleges or community colleges. In every possible case I encouraged them to do their best in whatever they do. Knowing that I was once almost on the verge of planning to enter a school where the average SAT seems to be about 500-530, I was (and continue to be) all ears to the idea that it’s the individual not the school.</p>
<p>But two months after decisions, only a handful had the ambition and determination to do their best or make their best of their options; for one such friend, I know she will go on to do great things; she underestimates her ability and is rather down to earth, but she does her best anyway. The other has endured great unspoken (in terms of public information) hardship. </p>
<p>But those are a minority of those who enter a lot of such schools – at least sampling those friends I know – other dozen don’t have the same drive. Maybe they’ll pick up their ambition in college, rather than before it.</p>
<p>I agree with galoisien that ultimately, it’s the individual not the school when it comes to financial success, but I’m not so sure about the acquisition of tastes developed out of collective intellectual and social consciousness (the collectivity of this consciousness, or norms, do much to the development of people immersed in them).</p>
<p>To toneranger, I’m not familiar with Geico commercials and how they relate to state schools… care to explain? By “state schools,” I meant the non-elite ones like Illinois State. Sorry for the confusion. I was careful to mention “non-elite schools” (because a lot of state schools are elite); however, when I used “state schools” (once in my post), I was referring to a specific incident where I compared Northwestern and Illinois State University women.</p>
<p>Several thoughts, and I have probably lost track of the original question … (and I have cross posted with the second sanjen)
I went to a mid tier public university after a small town public hs and have since lived all over the world and now live in a upper middle class area and kids go to West Point and Univ Texas. so make of all that what you will</p>
<p>I do think there is a social standing difference between ‘classes’. That said, I think it is demonstrable that an elite education is not a ‘golden ticket’ in todays society nor is a student at a lesser known university doomed to mediocrity. It is probable the tendenices are there.. just not the absolutes.</p>
<p>One of the most interesting observations on these boards is how people define ‘success’ differently… as a result many can be successful, but it looks different. </p>
<p>For example, if the post above from Northwestern is correct, I would hate for my S to be in such a pretenious, “I am so elite, I am not elite environment”. I would also say that there are regional differences in style… As a commentary to the sanjenpsot 26… I am questioning your NU education You are making statistically unsubstanitated conclusions, based on one ‘incident.’ However in fairness, you are likely correct in your observation and these boards are not scientific…just ‘cyber-bar’ talk …</p>
<p>Well, actually, the intellectual/social consciousness of the people at academically top schools makes them not elitist. To me, elitists are ones who are insensitive to racial, sexual, class inequalities and make that fact known (consciously or subconsciously) through their actions. Is it bad to think that intellectual/social consciousness is a good thing? Isn’t one of the main goals of education to attain such consciousness anyway? I definitely look up to people who are intellectually and socially conscious. When I was criticizing the Illinois State University women I observed, it was because their mentality (for example, making certain rhythms with their walking that shows they deem themselves as deserving of special status or treatment) is a threat to the equality of all people.</p>
<p>Also, I spent a year and a semester at a second-tier university before coming to Northwestern, so I’m basing my opinion on patterns I’ve observed time and time again. The specific incidents I mentioned are just examples that make up that pattern.</p>
<p>As another footnote, there are definitely people who could be in an academically elite school who, for some reason, are not. I’m not excluding them from the group disposed to acquiring tastes born of a collective intellectual/social consciousness, but like I said, they might find it harder to develop such tastes because they’re less exposed to the aforementioned norm. </p>
<p>One could also retain the tastes he/she acquired prior to entering an academically elite school, but their exposure to norms at the school would color how he/she sees and fashions that taste.</p>
<p>It’s just that so many students who go to “elite” schools seem to end up in ‘the machine,’ even if it’s a very lucrative position in the machine, if you know what I mean. That’s not to say that “lower-tier” schools (these terms I always use with heavy quote-marks) don’t have students also entering the machine, but a realisation that I developed this year is that no, getting into that school isn’t that magic ticket, and that there seems to be many elements of “slavery to the system,” conformity and determinism despite the students’ high intelligence.</p>
<p>I guess it’s the gnawing idea that I come across many students who seem to be ‘manufactured’ for their lives – private prep schools and Ivy Leagues being points along the assembly line chain, with parents sometimes being the factory workers. My valedictorian, who’s going into biochemical engineering, sees no value in fields like linguistics (which I plan to connect plentily to calculus, biological evolution and physics) or women’s studies, with all the entailing discussions of morality and right, almost like the misinformed relative at the dinner table who disapproves of your field of study. This I would tolerate as a personality trait if not for the fact that she doesn’t appear to have any fascination for the implications of the field she’s going into and she is not the type to wonder about concepts not covered by the course that happen to covered in the next page across from the assigned reading. This is just my gripe – she was after all, admitted to a rather good school. I do hope I’m wrong and that one day she might discover this post and correct me, but it’s just that there’s a certain dullness to the whole thing. We do have quite a cordial relationship face-to-face, but if you want a heart-to-heart talk about calculus and science – she isn’t the type to talk to.</p>
<p>I guess my impression of “top students” who attend elite schools are that of the type who transcend their conditions and “break out” of the moulds set for them.</p>
<p>It is a sort of philosophical problem – a while ago you may have noticed my thread in the admissions forum about “privilege”. I was trying to quantify my uneasiness I guess, and now I realise my real target wasn’t so much more privilege as the idea of “educational determinism” (you went there because your environment all your life has told you to go there). Most of us after all, find a certain uneasiness with Exeter and Andover sending 40-50 grads to Harvard each year in a systemic “mass production” kind of way. It’s not that they should be faulted for a nurtuing environment and for being brilliant, but shouldn’t the cream of the crop transcend their conditions – transcend ‘the machine’ (a very vaguely-defined idea at the moment)?</p>
<p>sferrer;
Just to circle back…Geico does commercials with caveman…I thought some of your references to state school grads fit that image. As for the swaying ladies…no comment.
IMO, it’s wrong to make assumptions about people based on their style of dress or outward appearance. How can you assume a group of people are intellectually or emotionally superior based on such surface characteristics? That’s a very shallow way of thinking. Elitism is not very attractive…
Your posts are filled with contradictions…you claim that NW students like yourself are are more sensitive and compassionate folks, yet you lash out at and insult state grads as inferior beings.
I have worked with folks who graduated from all kinds of schools and who come from all types of socioeconomic backgrounds. PHDs and high school drop outs. Yes, behaviors and dress can be different, but it’s important to reach deeper. Intelligence and compassion can be found in many people, and doesn’t always correlate to educational accomplishment and pedigree. Open your mind up on this one…</p>
<p>-No, I don’t think that state school grads are cavemen-like. In fact, I think one could look like a caveman and still be intellectually and socially conscious. You just need poor hygiene and lots of body hair.
-With some exceptions, I don’t make assumptions based on style of dress but rather demeanor as possibly accentuated by style of dress. I already explained how. One of the exceptions is being aware of what Abercrombie and Fitch stands for and still choosing to support it.
-I wasn’t disparaging state school students in general. I was making a very specific comparison, and the people happened to come from a state school. I’m well-aware of the fact that intellectually and socially conscious people exist at non-elite schools, including non-elite state schools; however, they are less exposed to the said norms I talked about, because the environment is not as conducive to the development of these norms.
-I do look deeper. Like I said, I’ve gotten to know people closely from spending 1 1/2 years at a non-elite school. My analyses are based on patterns I’ve observed time and again.
-Notice I did not mention intelligence anywhere in my posts? I think that’s a conclusion you came up with on your own. Intellectual consciousness and intelligence are not the same. I value the former much more.</p>
<p>Based on my D’s experience at an “elite” university and my experience as an adjunct faculty member at a LAC, I’d say that students at these schools aren’t that different and pretty much have the same goals - make a lot of money. Unfortunately in our society, money defines a lot including occupational prestige, a bit different than in other societies where a degree such as a Ph.D. is highly valued.</p>
<p>Sanjen, others
I have enjoyed your posts. It looks like you have some thoughtful things to say, and on the original issue I think you have a lot of good points… But surely for just a moment (without beign judgemental) you can see the internal inconsistency of your --those of us at elites schools have a better (or to use another word-elite) view of the world. I think you may in fact, have a very good point… but give just a bit of thought to at least HOW you are making your argument.</p>
<p>TO Galoisein… I understand your factory analogy, and concern about your valedictorian … but one of the great things about america is that we are each free to decide our version of success. With some maturity, you will hopefully see that what this individual thinks about your pursuits and interests doesnt invalidate your views and your pursuits …</p>
<p>Interesting concepts of what is elite. I’m an intellectual elitist- mere bachelor’s degrees are pedestrian, regardless of which institutioin they come from. I was surprised that the majority of college students at the elite colleges only get that far academically. It was a wake up call to realize that most of the students at the top schools are not as intellectual as the top students at most schools. And, talking with a mother years ago, she “only” had a masters in math, but in talking with an old professor of hers she realized that to go back at her age would be hard, research is easier when you are young, and since she would be getting the degree to satisfy herself she decided the other sacrifices (she was single parenting) weren’t worth it. All of the people in the business world fall beneath my radar, no matter how financially or otherwise successful they are in their field. These statements are an example of a different view of what is/isn’t elite.</p>
<p>BEGGARS
“Look down and see the beggars at your feet
Look down and show some mercy if you can
Look down and see the sweepings of the street
Look down, look down,
Upon your fellow man!”</p>
<p>GAVROCHE
“Ow do you do? My name’s Gavroche.
These are my people. Here’s my patch.
Not much to look at, nothing posh
Nothing that you’d call up to scratch.
This is my school, my high society
Here in the slums of Saint Michele”</p>
<p>Just can’t get excited about business success. If you mean intellectual by virtue of nonbusiness interests, or the theories (economics…) that’s different. BTW, most physicians are also not intellectuals, sigh.</p>
You are making statistically unsubstanitated conclusions, based on one ‘incident.’ However in fairness, you are likely correct in your observation and these boards are not scientific…just ‘cyber-bar’ talk …</p>