DO's and DON'T's: My Chat with an AO

WealthOfInformation · February 15, 2006, 5:26pm

I figured that I would post some helpful information not only for parents but for students as well. I had a nice conversation with one of my good friends who is an admissions officer at a selective university. She gave me a short list of DO's and DON'T's to keep in mind.

DO:

--Let the university know if they are your first choice if you feel comfortable.
--Get your information there on time
--Be kind and patient with the admissions process, it's difficult on both ends.
--Proof read your essays, she couldn't tell me how many times she read mistakes or poor editing. This usually results from being last minute.
--Visit campus if you get a chance, it makes a difference!

DON'T:
--Call the admissions office asking for information that you can find online (phone numbers or status check for example). 
--If you do call the admissions office, have the APPLICANT call. Mom and dad don't need to call admissions. Mom and Dad can talk to Financial Aid.
--Don't ask admissions officers to "sell" the school to you ,for this is not their job. Admissions officers are there to make sure the students are finding a good fit. There is no point in selling a school to a student who isn't interested... most times ''selling'' a school won't make a difference in student choice.
--Be nice to the tour guides and student workers, for they speak with admissions officers often and often can have information placed into admissions applications. I was surprised to hear this!
--Transfer credits from AP or a community college can be figured out over the summer after you've committed to enrol. Often times, the difference between two institutions and what transfers is marginal and shouldn't make a difference on where you go.

There were a few more things that she mentioned but I can't remember them all. I hope this helps some people out here.

citygirlsmom · February 15, 2006, 5:52pm

Don't be nice to your guides>> Really? did I read that wrong"

Otherwise great advise and thank you!!

HImom · February 15, 2006, 6:02pm

Thanks for taking the time to post this. Some of the guides we've had have been truly awful & I don't think they will remember my son at all, as he didn't ask any questions. This is the 1st time I have ever read that the guides have any influence in the admissions process at all. Oh well, son hasn't visited several of the schools he's interested in yet anyway.

maineparent · February 15, 2006, 6:02pm

This is the first time I have ever heard that tour guides can impact an application......that is amazing, and needs to be explored in more detail me thinks!! thanks for that tidbit.....

DudeDiligence · February 15, 2006, 6:44pm

Hey, hey, hey! I resemble this thread (albeit that "My Dinner With ..." thread had that je ne cais quoi that comes with referencing a strange and arguably overly-intellectual movie).

After almost three years on these boards, I've been trying like mad to wean myself from mother CC -- with varying degrees of success. That priomordial pull is sometimes so powerful. Anyway, the daughter-person is 5-6 weeks away from decision time, the die is cast, and apart from seeking some very specialized information at certain schools, we've done our due diligence ... dude.

However, kudos to you WOI, for presenting these factoids, or "tales from the front." Debate, conjecture, and subjective opinion is part of what makes CC such a valuable resource, but so is the kind of insider's info not typically found elsewhere.

roadlesstraveled · February 15, 2006, 7:01pm

This is the 1st time I have ever read that the guides have any influence in the admissions process}}

After visiting with my daughter for over two hours, a guide at Holy Cross made it point to write a nice note to the admission office and copy me on it. Id mentioned his name b/c I was so impressed by him, but Im not sure HC would appreciate doing so. It should also be mentioned the student/guide took the aforementioned two hours out of his personal time on a Sunday night b/c that was when we arrived, unannounced, and met him in the student center when asking whoever would listen for directions.

Noticing he hadnt seen my daughter on campus the following fall (she was accepted) he emailed her at her personal email addy she had given him asking her where she had matriculated. . After being informed she had chosen Smith, he very graciously informed my daughter Smith was a fantastic college and wished her all the best.
To me, that was an example of extraordinary manners and thoughtfulness not seen as often as one would like in todays culture.

berurah · February 15, 2006, 7:08pm

WOI~

Thanks for the insightful post!

DD~

[quote]
After almost three years on these boards, I've been trying like mad to wean myself from mother CC

[/quote]

Awwwwwwww, give it up already!! lol It'll never happen. NEVER. But if it DOES, go ahead and start a 12-step program for the rest of us poor souls who are hopelessly mired in CC-ville. Of course, I only have five more with whom to go through this arduous process, so I suppose I'm justified in my obsesson. ;)

~berurah

WealthOfInformation · February 15, 2006, 7:21pm

my bad, it should say DO be nice to the tour guides!! :O)

DudeDiligence · February 15, 2006, 8:59pm

WOI . . .

I'd be curious to hear what your good friend the AO (thank God you're not calling that individual person an "Adcom") has to say about the occasional brief, respectful, non-over-the-top letter or email from applicant to AO. Some on these boards completely ridicule anyone who would dare take this audacious step. Yet, I've heard a number of AO's (including one I had dinner with) say positive things about students who reasonably kept in touch, filled-in the details, and generally showed themselves to be sincerely interested real people. Both of my kids did a little of this, both had positive direct feedback from AO's, both had good success with admittances, both sought and received merit awards and acceptances into specialized programs. Clearly, it's not a statistically significant sampling and we have no idea how they would have done otherwise, but I find it hard to believe that it could ever hurt (assuming again that it's not done in an obvious, over-the-top manner). If you have kids still in the application process, it might be valuable to get a direct answer about this from an insider (although it's also an area where different insiders could have vastly different opinions).

Ms. Berurah . . .

[quote]
But if it DOES, go ahead and start a 12-step program for the rest of us poor souls who are hopelessly mired in CC-ville. Of course, I only have five more with whom to go through this arduous process, so I suppose I'm justified in my obsesson.

[/quote]

I don't want to hijack a very worthwhile thread so I'll be brief. Thanks a lot for your confidence. And to think that you've long been one of my favorite posters -- warm and fuzzies for almost everyone, but good old DD gets the harsh light of reality, eh? (sniff) But, aren't 12-step programs for those with an interest in actually overcoming something? Who says any of us actually want to be weaned? Besides, that term "obsession" is so starkly clinical -- I much prefer the term enlightened.

berurah · February 15, 2006, 9:30pm

[quote]
warm and fuzzies for almost everyone, but good old DD gets the harsh light of reality, eh?

[/quote]

Oh DD, sweetie, I am sooooooooooooo sorry that you feel slighted. I was NOT, in any way whatsoever, doubting your ability to wean yourself, but rather making a more general statement as to the vastly compelling nature of this site. {{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}} to you.

[quote]
And to think that you've long been one of my favorite posters

[/quote]

blush And....well, thanks!

[quote]
Besides, that term "obsession" is so starkly clinical -- I much prefer the term enlightened.

[/quote]

Do you mean starkly clinical? Or starkly cynical? lol You know, I rather like the term "enlightened." Do you mind if I steal it?? ;)

~berurah

Northstarmom · February 15, 2006, 11:22pm

"'d be curious to hear what your good friend the AO (thank God you're not calling that individual person an "Adcom") has to say about the occasional brief, respectful, non-over-the-top letter or email from applicant to AO. Some on these boards completely ridicule anyone who would dare take this audacious step. "

I suppose there are uninformed people who'll ridicule anything. However, what I've seen on the boards are people correctly telling students not to e-mail adcoms just to basically brownnose or keep their applications in front of the adcom's face.

It's fine to send an e-mail that updates that adcom about awards, honors, achievements that occurred since the application was sent, and that also lets the adcom know that the student remains very interested in the college. Sending things like this (preferably in a letter, not an e-mail) is a smart thing to do.

What's a waste of time is sending an e-mail that asks trivial questions (that are answered on the website) or that just says basically, "I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE your college." The admissions officers are busy and don't have time to wade through stuff like this.

OH_DAD · February 16, 2006, 2:19am

I respectfully disagree with the point about parents calling the admissions office. My son is a busy senior, and since I work at home, I've been quite involved in making calls to setup tours and departmental (faculty) visits, etc. I make it a point to deal with why I'm making the call very early in the conversation. I tell them "point blank" that I'm calling because it is not realistic for my son to be making these types of calls during the work day. I've never once felt judged or slighted, or placed at some kind of disadvantage because I'm the one having the conversation, rather than my son.

A second point is that I'm more able to "read between the lines" during these conversations, and I'm certainly better, simply due to age and life experience, to probe into areas he would not be comfortable covering, but which are important to him and us. For example, I can ask questions which absolutely aren't covered in literature or on web-sites such as campus safety issues -- these important issues would seem awkward being queried by the student, but most admissions folks would certainly understand that a parent would want to know the real data.

IMHO, if a school were to put my son on a lower eschelon of the admittance ladder because of some perceived lack of involvement by him (due to me making phone calls), I would not want him attending the school anyway.

I understand that your points are passed along from an insider;I just question whether this particular point is universal, or just one person's opinion.

Northstarmom · February 16, 2006, 2:37am

"I respectfully disagree with the point about parents calling the admissions office. My son is a busy senior, and since I work at home, I've been quite involved in making calls to setup tours and departmental (faculty) visits, etc. I make it a point to deal with why I'm making the call very early in the conversation. I tell them "point blank" that I'm calling because it is not realistic for my son to be making these types of calls during the work day. "

I've seen articles quoting admissions officers saying they would like students to do these things. I also have talked personally with AOs who have said the same thing.

My regional Harvard AO has told me that she replies to students' calls by calling in the evening when students are likely to be home. She will talk only to the student, not the parents, about the students' concerns. If the student isn't home and the parent tries to handle things, the AO will ask when the student will return so she can talk directly with the student.

While it obviously is difficult for students to make these kind of calls during business hours, students can do lots of things through e-mail. This includes scheduling campus visits.

Also many if not most students also have cell phones and can make some business calls during lunch period and before and after school. Depending on one's time zone and the time zones of the colleges, the before and after school periods can be business hours, allowing students to directly call admissions offices.

"A second point is that I'm more able to "read between the lines" during these conversations, and I'm certainly better, simply due to age and life experience, to probe into areas he would not be comfortable covering, but which are important to him and us. For example, I can ask questions which absolutely aren't covered in literature or on web-sites such as campus safety issues -- these important issues would seem awkward being queried by the student,"

IMO it would seem smart, not "awkward" for students to query about such issues. Anyway, much of the information about such things can be found by using Google and other search engines as well as the campus newspapers and web sites.

Moreover, how students become comfortable asking questions about sensitive subjects and how they learn to read between the lines is by having to ask such questions.

IMO if the students need to rely on their parents to get answers to important questions about college, the students aren't ready to go away to college. Certainly, in college, students will have to solve their own problems and get their own concerns addressed. Mommy and Daddy won't be able to handle things for them.

If parents don't teach students how to handle these situations while they are in high school, the students will not be capable of handling these things when they're away in college. How students learn to handle these things is by having to do it, not by having their parents do these things for them.

"IMHO, if a school were to put my son on a lower eschelon of the admittance ladder because of some perceived lack of involvement by him (due to me making phone calls), I would not want him attending the school anyway."

The most competitive colleges tend to highly value students' independence, and therefore are IMO most likely to hold parents phone calls against the students.

My guess is that colleges that accept most of their applicants and/or are known for being very nurturing such as the type of colleges mentioned in Colleges that Change Lives are not likely to negatively factor in admissions parents' phone calls.

calmom · February 16, 2006, 3:53am

OH_DAD - 5 years ago, when my son was a high school senior, I would have agreed with you. We only had one computer hooked up to the internet at home (the desktop I used for my work), the computers at my son's high school had painfully slow dialup connections, my son's school prohibited use of cell phones on campus by students, and in any case my son did not have his own cell phone and there was no reception so he couldn't have made calls from school even if he'd wanted to. So I called to make appointments for him, called to check to make sure colleges had received materials, etc.

Now I strongly disagree. Times have changed. My daughter, a high school senior, made two separate trips to the east coast on her own to visit colleges, making all arrangements for visits, tours, interviews on her own. Just about every college had an online registration system - phone calls were seldom needed. Cell phones are ubiquitous at my daughter's school - no one thinks twice about a student making a call between classes. Plenty of computers and good internet connections at school as well - easy to check email. In fact, the cell phone can be used to send & receive email these days as well as text messages. In fact, my daughter provided the colleges with her cell phone number - NOT our home number -- so I don't even have the opportunity to take messages.

So this time around I stayed out of it, except for calls to the financial aid departments. My daughter said the interviewers at the colleges she visited were all tremendously impressed that she showed up on campus without being accompanied by parents. I think the problem with your comment about "reading between the lines" is that you are unaware of how much the admissions staff is "reading between the lines" based on your call. They may be polite, you may be getting the information you want, but they may be thinking, "uh, oh, overbearing parent on the line". Questions about campus safety are probably best explored in other ways: the admissions staff is employed to say good things about the college, if you want to know the real scoop, you need to check the school and local newspapers.

I think there are occasions when a parent really does have to call for a student - but this should now be reserved for emergencies and very unusual situations. Current technology has really eliminated the excuse that something can't be done during school hours -- so basically offering that as an explanation probably comes off as a very lame excuse.

That being said - if your son is otherwise a strong candidate for the school that is a match or a safety, your running interference for him probably won't make much of a difference. So in most cases it probably is not doing any harm.... but I can see why the advice from the unidentified AO at this point is for the parents to avoid those calls if possible. The bottom line is that every direct contact a student has with an admissions staffer is an opportunity to make some sort of personal impression - this is especially true at colleges that follow the practice of assigning a regional admissions officer to answer inquiries from students, when those officers also have a significant voice in the admissions process.

binx · February 16, 2006, 4:14am

Both my S's went through the application process long before I knew CC, so I didn't have enough knowledge then to be paranoid about everything we did. ;) I did handle a fair amount of stuff for both kids, although they also did much of it themselves. I can't remember who did what; like I said, I didn't know enough to care. My boys did a lot by themselves via email. Many times, my H or I would get called to the computer to "see if this sounds right."

It didn't occur to me to stay out of the process, though. In hindsight, I wonder if the few letters of reference we actually got to see that mentioned "supportive family" were actually code words for a warning of some sort??? At the time I thought it was a positive!

I remember calling one school (Cornell, I think) when I discovered on the due date that S had mailed off his application without signing it. I discovered it while packing up the "dining room table / college application office," while S was at school. I didn't want to wait till he got home to find out what to do, so I made the call myself. Ended up having to call S out of class to sign, and then go find a fax machine. The Admissions office didn't seem the least bit put out by having to deal with me, were quite cheerful and understanding, and S was offered admission there. In fact, both S's were admitted nearly everywhere they applied, including their respective first choices: Penn and Juilliard, neither of which is especially coddling.

None of this is meant to negate what NSM or others are saying, who are in a much better position to advise. It is only anecdotal to suggest that if every school discounted the student whose parents helped, their admission pool would be somewhat smaller. And maybe it is just certain levels of involvement that are over the top.

3togo · February 16, 2006, 5:56am

I think NSM's overall comments basically hit it on the head ...

[quote]
The most competitive colleges tend to highly value students' independence, and therefore are IMO most likely to hold parents phone calls against the students.

[/quote]
I would word this slightly differently ... when I was doing alumni interviews I wouldn't hold parental involvement against the applicant ... but it did raise questions about the maturity/independence level of the student compared to other students.

I would interview about 10 students a year and maybe 7 ot 8 of them would handle everything themselves and showed maturity and independence in this situation ... for the other 2 or 3 where the parents were involved it raised a flag to investigate ... if a parent did actively handle logistics of the interview I would explicitly fish in the interview to see if the applicant was taking the lead in the applcation process or in other places in their life ... or if their parents consistently did things for them all the time.

Given tons of highly qualified applicants the kids showing the most maturity, indepedence, and assertiveness have an advantage. The people at the school do not know your child or your family, they only get a glimpse or your child during the application process ... and, for my kids, I want everyone one of those glimpses to be as positive as possible ... so I'll will be staying out of sight as much as humanly possibly with any school.

edad · February 16, 2006, 6:45am

We were perhaps excessively involved with D's college selection and application process. Looking back, I would not have done things differently. My W made numerous calls to admissions offices. The calls were necessary to resolve issues with missing paperwork, confusing requirements and for setting up visits and interviews. There was no way my D could handle this. She was in school during office hours. When emails were appropriate and helpful, my D sent the emails. For alumni visits, we dropped off my D, left and returned in about an hour and waited in the car. We were totally involved with campus visits. This included taking tours and meetings with admissions and department representatives. Some of the meetings also included informal interviews. We excused ourselves when this was apparent. My D followed up with emails thanking admissions and department reps for their time. At one college there was an admissions secretary who was very helpful and I sent an email to the DO. Considering the magnitude of the college selection and admissions process - and the financial considerations - I think it is appropriate for parents to be involved. My D appreciated the help and we were never closer as a family. My D had an iron will, a lot of self confidence and has no difficulty relating to adults. We did not need to worry about appearing to be controlling parents.

mommusic · February 16, 2006, 7:56am

I was surprised when my son returned from visiting his "safety" (solid state U) he reported that his two interviewers both asked where his parents were. I told him HE was the one who was going to college, not me. Perhaps, as has been hinted, expectations are different at HYP vs. the mass of other schools or "schools that change lives."

Northstarmom · February 16, 2006, 8:24am

Since I notice that OhDad's son is a NM finalist applying to U Central Florida, I am very sure that OhDad's calls will not be held against the son. Indeed, UCF may welcome the calls in hopes of influencing the dad to send his son to their college, where the son would be a top recruit.

Things, however, would be different at a place like Harvard, where there are so many outstanding candidates with even rarer honors than NM finalist, that the college would be more concerned with making sure that the applicant had the independence to handle the intense swim with the sharks atmosphere at Harvard than whether the parent would encourage the student to go there.

For the record, I have made calls to colleges on behalf of my sons. When I did, these were to colleges where I knew that my sons would be highly desireable applicants. My calls were very welcomed, and my older son got excellent merit aid from one of the places that I had called.

If I were to do it again, however, I would let my sons make all of the calls. Despite busy schedules, both had the ability to contact colleges through either cell phone or e-mail. Their hesitation to do this was a reflection of not being quite ready for college.

Older son, for instance, went off to college and flunked out because he didn't attend class.

After I stopped making calls for younger son and lining up visits, this son managed not to apply to any college, and decided to take a gap year. His initial idea was to do it at a distant location, but when he didn't contact those locations to get his questions answered, I didn't call for him, and he missed the application date. Now, he has done a very nice job on his own of lining up an excellent gap year possibility in our home town. I think that being home next year doing a productive activity is exactly what he needs to be truly ready for college.

I am not at all suggesting that's the situation with OhDad's son. I do think, however, that probably the best way that OhDad can help his son get the answers to those important questions is by talking with his son about how to handle the phone calls or e-mails, and then letting the son proceed with contacting the colleges. The lessons that the son will learn will serve him well when he goes away to college and for the rest of his life.

I think it's important for us parents to realize that the process of choosing a college is one of our last opportunities to teach or kids some very important life lessons. We can do this by teaching them and allowing them to take responsibility for the various concerns involved in this expensive, life changing decision.

katwkittens · February 16, 2006, 9:25am

What we as a family have experienced regarding contact has been different than some of the other posters. In fact from the colleges themselves. Not only have some of the "elites" called and wrote specifically to talk to me, THE MAMA, but we have received several offers from the schools not only inviting son to attend a week-end visit but also included myself, AT THEIR EXPENSE. Overnight arrangements for him at a dorm, and accomodations for myself at a nearby hotel or if I wished a professor or admin or alumni.

Some of these offers for visits have been since he was admitted to their school(s) and some have been before he was admitted. He did have offers for some that covered the expenses for just him, but did extend the invitation to me, at my expense, but they would coordinate the arrangements for me.

The offers were always made in writing first, and then followed up a few days later with a phone call,with email reminders mostly made during school hours. When I told the schools he was in class they assumed that, they wanted to talk to me and then would call him later that evening when he would be home after practice/games/meets. As a 3 season varsity athlete, he always has practice!

I honestly don't think the schools that he has been admitted to thus far consider him immature or lacking in independence or leadership for that matter for having contact with me or questions asked by me. This was true for my other 3 college students. Much of the contact for my D1 athlete, especially during season/regionals/nationals was handled through me. Coaches and admin knew she had a hectic schedule and anticipated such. Same was true of her older bro, football player, and his college stuff.

As far as cell phones, nope don't have one. One computer at home. We have 1 car, kids ride the bus. We all coordinate rides to and from school, ECs, interviews, internships, work and class.

The kiddos will call their respective schools if they are home in time, if not they all leave notes for me to call, what to say and why I am calling. They do also leave a time if the person I am supposed to talk to wants to call them back. Son has had a number of interviews, some I have attended, at their request, and some I just waited in the car (well, shopped!). The ones I have attended the interviewer invited me, and was very friendly. Now this could be due to the fact that we do live in the south and almost all of the alumni son was interviewed by were southerners, (evidenced by their accents) and southern hospitality is taken very seriously here.

Also I think it depends very much on the prospective student. My dd, the recruited athlete, was adamant that I meet each and every coach and approve of her final choice in schools. My son, on the other hand, boarded the plane for his school, sight unseen, and went for the year without me ever visiting, still haven't.

I guess I am in the camp, I will do what my kiddos need, and if that isn't in line with what the school needs, well then..... NEXT.

My boys are very much of the mind set, if you don't want to talk to my mama, then you won't be talking to me. My daughters are much more tactful and diplomatic but if you take out all the fluff in their conversations, they say the same thing. Whether this is out of respect for me or true need is irrelevant to me. As far as this being my last opportunity to teach my kiddos life lessons, that is far from true here. They will ALL being learning something from me long after I am gone!!!

Wanted to give a different perspective.

Kat

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DO's and DON'T's: My Chat with an AO

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