drinking code violation: this is ridiculous

Parents Forum
1

<p>So my D's apartment mates had a party and a lot of drinking was going on. Because she didn't want to be part of it and put herself in a bad situation (she rarely drinks), she left the apartment and went across the hall to the floor's lounge and stayed there working for quite while. After a while, two guys she knows came by and said do you want to go to X's room with us. She went. X was drinking. A few minutes after D got there, an RA got there and wrote them up. Everyone there verified that D had just gotten there and hadn't had anything to drink. She was called to a meeting anyway. She was told that even though everyone verified her story, she had been "in sight" of alcohol and was therefore considered as guilty as anyone else. Unbelievable. They were going to look up other "cases" to see if a dispensation could be made. </p>

<p>I'm just so ticked off about this. This is a kid who plans to transfer out after first semester, and she'll have this on her record? Unbelievable. Goes out of her room so that she WON'T be around alcohol, and is cited for drinking in another room, everyone agrees that she was not drinking, but on her record anyway. </p>

<p>Any suggestions?</p>

2

<p>If you have the money get a lawyer.</p>

3

<p>As injustice goes, this one isn't all that bad. My D got mandatory community service for being at a party where an unnamed underaged person was apparently drinking. The principal wasn't too thrilled about the disciplinary action, but was very firm in asserting "Well I can't do NOTHING when presented evidence of drinking." I'd speculate that the RA is pretty much in the same place.</p>

4

<p>Sorry, but I disagree that the D was treated unfairly.</p>

<p>At S's college freshmen week students and parents were told that alcohol isn't allowed in the dorms, and any student found with alcohol in their room or who was in a room in which alcohol was found could face consequences including losing merit aid. </p>

<p>As a result, S laid down the law with his roommates that no alcohol could be in their room.</p>

<p>If S was busted after walking into a room in which there was a party in which alcohol was present, I'd wait for the situation to be adjudicated on campus before calling in a lawyer. It would make sense that there would be some kind of adjudication process. I wouldn't expect the campus officials to just drop charges immediately based on the word of the people at the party.</p>

<p>What also would be important would be how long my kid was there. If he literally had just walked in, that would be a different situation than if he came in and socialized for a while even if he wasn't drinking. If the student stayed a while in a drinking environment, that would indicate that the student had no problem with rules being broken, and may even have been planning to drink.</p>

5

<p>I am 100% against underage drinking, but this to me is like giving the passengers on a bus a speeding ticket because the driver was going to fast. The whole thing where one is drinking and all get cited has to be illegal. What happened to presumed innocence, personal responsibility and burden of proof? Without seeing the drinking code it's tough, but doesn't the school have some responsibility in exchange for the thousands of dollars it charges for a room to give the OP's D a place to live where she can not be guilty of something by simply being in her room minding her own business? </p>

<p>And yeah, it's "no big deal" unless you are an education major in a state like PA where it eliminates you from the education program and makes you ineligible to get a teaching license.</p>

<p>NewHope33, I would hope the principal wouldn't do NOTHING. He should, if it was something that fell under his jurisdiction, punish the guilty party. Holding kids or young adults responsible for the actions of others that is reasonably not known to them seems like something I wouldn't want to tolerate. My S will be 21 in July and is an education major. Every day he he gets closer to 21 I breathe a little easier that time is running out for him to get caught up in some of this nonsense. It's almost like playing Russian roulette. Hopefully one underage kid doesn't sneak a beer into the stadium for the football game this weekend and drink it in the stands. Imagine if they got caught, all persons under the age of 21 and "in sight" of him will then be written up and arrested, because the administration would not want to just do NOTHING.</p>

6

<p>Great example of why "in the same room" drinking rules are a bad idea. Right up there with the rest of the "zero tolerance" rules from High School. </p>

<p>How would they define in the same room? For example, if there were an event in the college gym - with 20,000 people there - and one student has a hip flask, does everyone get written up?</p>

<p>How about a event in the lounge or in the library during study hours with 200 students attending?</p>

<p>What if she were walking past in the hallway and the door was open to this room with the alcohol?</p>

<p>Standing in the doorway talking to the students in the room? </p>

<p>Bottom line, dumb rule - it makes life easier on administrators but at the same time cannot really be enforced in all situations. </p>

<p>I'd help her appeal this upwards - perhaps a deal where no additional violations in x period of time and they tear it up? BTW - next time she should insist on a breathalyzer test to prove the non consumption of alcohol. (although hopefully there isn't a next time :) )</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
As a result, S laid down the law with his roommates that no alcohol could be in their room.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Your son may be very aggressive and willing to take the repurcussions of such a move. But expecting every student to be willing or able to police the drinking habits of every other student in the dormitory is unreasonable.</p>

<p>Essentially, OP's D has to hide in the library or a public lounge, is unable to go anywhere in her own dormitory, for fear that someone somewhere might be drinking. It's an outrageously unfair and arbitrary rule.</p>

8

<p>I don't think that expecting a student to walk out of the room or evern - - heaven forbing - - to go to the library is unreasonable. Also, the college's rule re: alcohol isounds similar to some state laws regarding possession of drugs, where being in the room is enough. (And for the underaged, alcohol IS an illegal substance.)</p>

9

<p>I do think expecting a student to walk out the door of his/her room is too much. If the school was serious about alcohol, then the kids that actually were drinking would be expelled, period. Holding it, breathalyzer, positive hit, out the door, end of story. A couple of expulsions and everyone will know the college is serious. If you don't want to go there because you want to underage drink, then go elsewhere. If they are not serious enough for that, then quit harrassing the kids that aren't a problem. Having a no alcohol in dorm rule and then slapping the guilty on the wrist is a typical CMA move by colleges.</p>

10

<p>I think you need to look at the policy violation, if it is against policy to be in the presence of alcohol, then I don't think you have a case, as this is what happened. It seems like she wouldn't be charged with alcohol consumption, since she wasn't consuming, but she was in it's presence, albeit for a short period of time.</p>

<p>If the school has an appeal process, she can request a hearing, where she will get to plead her case in front of a board, students can usually call witnesses, etc. </p>

<p>The point of getting "written up" isn't to kick students out of school; it is supposed to be educational, which is why the sanctions get harsher when a person develops a habit of getting cited. Eventually, this will lead to getting kicked out of a residence hall, and eventually school. It is set up to be a learning process, and for many the set up actually works, and students learn how to behave in their university community.</p>

<p>As long as this is not a trend, usually one such violation has absolutely no effect on a students record, once they have completed their sanction (usually attend an education session about alcohol, meet with the RD). </p>

<p>Also, although I now work in student affairs, I also hold a teaching certification for the state of Pennsylvania (within the past 5 years, and spent a few years teaching), and my one alcohol violation in my freshman year of college was never brought up; the state did not request a disciplinary record from my university. This happening my freshmen year has had no effect on my life in any way since then; I learned my lesson from being at a big party when I shouldn't have been. For me it actually was a learning experience, and it never happened again. I also have friends who transferred schools, having been written up once, and it isn't an issue at all.</p>

<p>Again, look into the code of conduct policy at the school, but honestly, I think there is nothing to worry about in terms of repercussions, as long as this is not a trend, which in this case it doesn't sound like it is.</p>

11

<p>My son learned this lesson the hard way. The only solution we could come up with - short of living alone as a hermit - was, keep your door locked and do not open it unless you know who is knocking.</p>

<p>I know that sounds cynical, but honestly, what can you tell a kid to do? Don't go to another room unless you are sure there is no alcohol present? Don't let anyone into your room unless you are sure they are alcohol free? Do you breathalyze people before they enter your room? Perform a cavity search? Is that realistic?</p>

12

<p>The idea that a non-drinking kid has to literally hide behind locked doors in their room, or flee the dorm, in order to avoid being charged with "being in the presence of alcohol" is simply ludicrous in my opinion. What if people are drinking in the common room of your suite and you have to pass through it in order to go to the bathroom? Better issue every kid a china pot, as in the days before indoor plumbing!</p>

<p>If the school is so concerned about alcohol consumption they should be firm with those who drink, period.</p>

13

<p>I agree that the fairer and more prudent course of action would be to get tough with those actually consuming alcohol - - and cut loose OP's D since, by all accounts, she had just entered the room (although I suspect the school views ths differently than passing through the common room b/c there is no evidence that OP's D, having spotted the alcohol, was about to leave).</p>

14

<p>I don't know the rules from 5 years ago, but clearly stated on the PA Dept of Education website, as well as about every school's website, are PA's rules that one misdemeanor alcohol related offense AUTOMATICALLY precludes you from obtaining certification. It will be found during your clearances check. Had your university happened to have called the local police, or the police had been involved, depending on what transpired, you could have been out. Now the argument can be made that most cases underage drinking for the first violation is usually written up as a summary offense, but there are no guarantees. Case in point, son's GF went to visit some friends in OH last year and went to a party with them where there was drinking and she in fact drank a little. In PA, this is typically a summary offense. In OH, it turns out to be a misdemeanor. She was found guilty and is now out of education. In her case stupid, but what might have been just a slap here turned out to be life changing.</p>

<p>Since after all, as foolishpleasure has pointed out, for the underaged, drinking is against the law, what's wrong with expulsion for those guilty, as long as those consequences are clearly communicated in advance?</p>

15

<p>Yea basically the non-drinking student has no individual rights and it's guilty by association.</p>

16

<p>Not guilty by association, but guilty of exercising poor judgement by not turning on her heels when she saw the alcohol. I'm not saying the school's rule is great, but she WAS on notice, knew she should leave (as evinced by the fact that she left her own room b/c of the drinking) - - and yet chose to stay.</p>

17

<p>How explicit is the school in telling the kids the consequences? There are some schools that are very upfront telling the kids the requirements and punishments and have no tolerance. Other schools are very lax but there are gung-ho RAs enforcing every detail. I guess it would depend on where the school is on the spectrum. I would definitely have her appeal it(or whatever the process is). What happened to the drinkers?</p>

18

<p>I serve on a committee that hears similar cases for the family court.</p>

<p>The law here is that all those present underage are considered to possess the alcohol. </p>

<p>I'm sorry to be difficult about the fact that D had just arrived, and didn't drink, but those who will be hearing the case might be a little jaded. We always hear kids say "I just got there". In fact, in one situation, 25 kids had been arrested at a very well-stocked party and all but one of them told us that they didn't drink and they had only been at the party for a few minutes before the police arrived.</p>

19

<p>Rules are very strict at my son's uni but he's in an off-campus apartment. I've told him of the dorm rules. Lots of kids from the dorms head over to the off-campus apartments to drink.</p>

<p>The kids across the hall hold parties every week and they're underage. But they're quiet about it. I talked to the owner of the pizza place across the street (he's there all day and notices everything that goes on in the neighborhood) and he knows what the kids do. I told our son that if the place gets raided, to not be around. He can talk to the kids on the balcony but if he sees blue flashing lights, to get back into his apartment.</p>

<p>The police station is just across the street. There are parties in the apartments in the building next door to the police station. They look the other way.</p>

<p>Make sure that your kids know what the rules are and the potential risks. Rules may be unfair but they're still there and you have to be able to minimize risks. If there are drugs, leave immediately.</p>

20

<p>"The law here is that all those present underage are considered to possess the alcohol."</p>

<p>Therein lies the problem.</p>

<p>Unless the university has a mechanism to assure the kids that pay to stay in it's dorms that they can stay in those dorms minding their own business and not have to worry about this policy, I say the whole thing is BS. Give them all $300 fines, community service, everyone learned obviously doesn't work. A lot of college campuses are out of control partying, nothing new there. We sit back and say well we taught them a lesson. What lesson? Don't worry about the law, because hey, it's only a couple of hundred bucks and it doesn't mean anything. Heck, you can drive around drunk in this country and wipe out a whole family and only get a few years in jail. Watch COPS sometime and see the crazy stuff that goes on, and I am sure a lot of that is mild. 30 year olds on thier 10th or 15th DUI. </p>

<p>The whole thing stinks. These kids who are in most instances paying $3000 a semester or more to share a room with someone else should not have to run away from their room period. They should not have to operate as the police department either. It's not that hard to figure out who's been drinking. Have the campus police get a breathalyzer, they aren't that expensive. Party gets broken up by campus police, everyone tests. Test positive or don't test, get expelled from the dorms or the school. No "second chance". It's amazing to me the parents that are willing to just let the kids potentially get a record for not doing anything. It is no different than being the bus passenger and getting the speeding ticket. You pay your money for your seat or room, and ride or live. It is not your responsibility to make sure the driver doesn't speed, and it's not your reponsibility to make sure the roommate isn't drinking. </p>

<p>Time to find a new college (or state).</p>

<p>BC Eagle, isn't alcohol a drug?</p>