Dual thread: Which Major is less risky?

K8sDad · February 17, 2012, 5:52pm

the contestants:

Popular/Commercial Voice Degree

vs.

Musical Theater Degree

vs.

Voice/Opera (Performance)

All three are high risk. All three requires loads of talent and hard work. All three make parents wonder if it's worth spending 40, 50, 200 thousand dollars funding a degree in the arts. But which one is the safest bet? Which one is most likely to lead a student to a fulfilling life as a paid performer? Which is the least risky proposition?

Here are the rules:
1. Assume equal talent level, work ethic, program quality, etc.
2. No stating the obvious ("all are extremely risky, jobs are scarce, you could be a teacher, yada yada yada")
3. Keep it purely hypothetical - no need to clarify, "well, if this" or "depending on that"...
4. For this exercise, SUCCESS should be defined as "making a living as a performer as your sole source of income." Not stinking rich but comfortable and not worried about paying the bills every month.
5. Restrict your answer to: WHICH IS LESS RISKY, plus one or two sentences why.
6. MOST IMPORTANT RULE: Have fun with this. It's not a serious topic, just for fun & debate.

As for me, I think you could make an argument for any of the three, but I'm leaning towards:

MUSICAL THEATER, because of the loads of NY, touring, and regional companies, not to mention cruise lines, acting for TV and film, etc.

(see, that's an example of how to write your reply)

SIDE BET: Guess how many replies before someone goes off tangent with a long diatribe!

Aaaaannnnnd.... GO!

srw · February 17, 2012, 6:32pm

I vote for VP. I was terribly relieved when my son switched from MT to VP.

stradmom · February 17, 2012, 7:16pm

Anyone who is risk-averse shouldn’t be majoring in any of the three.

glassharmonica · February 17, 2012, 8:50pm

Lol, stradmom. :)

fisheee · February 17, 2012, 8:53pm

VP because it might seem more impressive to potential non-musician employers.

srw · February 17, 2012, 11:20pm

^^ LOL to both!

K8sDad · February 18, 2012, 12:04am

Ugh. It only took two replies.

Yoshi2 · February 18, 2012, 8:16am

I don’t want to sound really ignorant, but I totally agree with fishee that VP sounds like a more official degree than musical theatre or pop voice (not saying that it is, just it sounds that way). I feel like VP allows for training in singing mostly, but some in acting, dancing, languages, etc. So I feel like there are more job opportunities out there for VP majors (Watch someone come in with the usual statement “classical singing is only useful for classical singing” which I personally disagree with, but what do I know. Singing in different languages has helped me with my MT singing tremendously, and no one can convince me that it didn’t. Well golden age musical theatre, that is. Rock and pop MT is a whole different battle…)

yodelo · February 18, 2012, 8:21am

whats stradmom said

megpmom · February 18, 2012, 9:21am

I’ll tell you in 10 years. I have one kid majoring in MT and one majoring in VP.

musicprnt · February 18, 2012, 10:30am

Sorry, K8, but even in ‘fun’ the answer is what you told us not to say, they are probably equally risky if what you mean by success is actually making a decent living at it.

Studying popular/contemporary music for example, would seem like it has less risk in that that spans a lot (or seems to), with such a background someone could do pop singing (lead or backup, part of a group), do session studio work, do commercials, do weddings/bar mitzvahs, you name it, seems like a broad base. The problem there, though, is similar to other forms of music the competition is fierce and made worse by the fact that you can do this kind of music without going through a formal training program or formal teaching. Going to USC for contemporary music is prob an intensive program, with good teaching and training and probably does help network, but that alone isn’t going to allow someone to ‘make it’. There are just so many with dreams of stardom out there, kind of like with acting, that it makes it fraught with difficulty.

MT? While prob not quite as many people trying to get into musical theater, the play “a chorus line” still holds true, there are a ton of people out there, talented, experienced, fighting for those jobs. Yes, there is more then broadway, they are regional theaters, summer stock, etc, but again the number of jobs is relatively few from my view and the numbers trying to get into it huge. Girl I knew in high school went that route (she actually has an engineering degree from Cornell, go figure) and she is in that world, has been on broadway (ironically as part of one of the casts of “A chorus Line”), and so forth, and several years ago when I ran into her she said that with musical theater while there are open casting calls and such, a lot of the jobs tend to go to a very few people producers and directors know, which makes it more difficult to ‘break into’.

As far as VP goes, yes that training could be used for anything, there are plenty of classically trained singers doing other things, people who have had the training and done other things (I seem to recall Robert Guilllaume, the actor, and Pat Benatar both had serious vocal training, there are others). There are probably less people going into VP but the problem is the same as other fields, lot more going into it then there are jobs. In the classical world, there are prob less jobs for vocal students then instrumental, as tough as that is, and while there are regional operas, choral groups and so forth, the numbers of open positions of any kind (let alone those that pay decent wages) are small. If a VP major tries other things like pop music, studio work, theater work, the prob there is those positions don’t require vp training and the same probs for MT and contemporary music apply, competing against a huge pool for relatively few gigs.

If you are talking thinking of teaching filling in the gaps, the perhaps I would say either contemporary music or vp would be the ones to better get students, given that a vp major or a contemporary major could also potentially train singers for MT (just my opinion, not my world, so take that with grains of salt).

My take? To make it in any of these fields the ‘less risky’ choice would be to choose the one the student has the most passion for, the one they are driven to achieve in, because without that passion guaranteed you don’t make it.

imagep · February 18, 2012, 12:18pm

I don’t know anything about voice other than what I see on American Idol.

For that reason, I would expect that the first option would be the least risky. I am fairly confident that there are far more jobs in the popular music world than in theater or opera.

I think that my college freshman music major son just finally realized this week that the chances of getting a classical performance job are virtually nill. I’ve been trying to tell him that for a long time, but I think it took hearing it from is college professors for it to really sink in.

Last week he realized that there are more students in his college studio right now than there are jobs in major classical performance groups (for his instrument in the USA). Then this week he took it kind of hard when he heard his idol, who has a performance degree, flat out say that “a performance degree is worthless”. Time to look into other options.

Now before you guy’s start to flame me, remember, this thread was “just for fun.” You are welcome to disagree with me, but not to attack me because you disagree.

imagep · February 18, 2012, 12:48pm

Just adding to my post above a little, who cares which degree sounds more “official” or “impressive” to the general public. The general public doesn’t hire singers. The question was was about risk. I would assume that anyone who is in charge of hiring singers knows the difference between the degrees.

I think that what is taught at most music schools is so outdated and antiquated that it is rediculous. I also see a lot of borderline snobbery in classical music academia. If colleges cared more about their students, and not so much about prestige, they would teach a lot less classical music and a lot more popular music.

And while I am ranting…last night while doing some web surfing I found several rants made by opera singers against todays young “pop-opera” stars. Talking about snobbery, those people were pathetic. To attack a young singer because she “modifies” her voice to “mimic what she thinks the public wants to hear” just shows how jeolous these snobs are. Of course these yongsters are modifying their voice. Everyone modifies their voice when they sing. They do it for the same reason that people take voice lessons - because they want to sound good. There is absolutely no difference between these young pop-opera stars and classically trained true opera singers, other than the pop-opera stars have amazing natural tallent that those who took years to get where they are don’t naturally have.

Again, thats just my opinion, you are welcome to disagree.

woodwinds · February 18, 2012, 1:00pm

K8–I agree with musicprnt and Stradmom. As a parent of two successful children in the arts (by your definition, making a good living performing) I have never looked at this issue or framed it the way you have.

Kids who have the best chance of success are those who figure out early on what they really want, then put everything into it and strive to be the “best” at it. It is risky even when you are the best in your field, your region. Many of the successful ones have parents who have worked a lot to help them be successful, carefully supporting what their child wants, but avoiding directing them (i.e. "You should do _______ because you are more likely to succeed in this field).

I would urge them to get as much experience in the field as possible BEFORE going to college, or not go to college at all if they are already successful. I always told my kids they should be at a near-professional level by the time they are 18, if they want to make it.

I don’t have anyone in the MT field, except that my 16-year old daughter performs in pit orchestras for pay around town. She plays all the woodwinds. I would second what musicparnt said about MT being more about who-you-know, because my daughter also has to deal with the same musical directors. They will often just keep hiring the same musicians if they are reliable about showing up, even if they don’t play very well. I would add that out of the 60 or so musical theaters around us (tri-state area) only four of them pay the actors. They all pay the musicians, although it’s not much.

I would try a multi-faceted approach. When my musician seemed interested in MT or voice at age 9, I put her in dance classes (she needs exercise anyway, right?) and took her to an audition at a professional opera company which needed some child roles. There’s nothing wrong with a VP major knowing how to dance and act. In the last musical my daughter played in, I noticed there was a 10-year old boy who could act and sing very well already, with confidence. I talked to his mom–she is constantly taking him to auditions all over. He has performed in commercials and had small parts in TV shows. I think that’s a good way to go about it–he’s getting important experience at a young age.

srw · February 18, 2012, 1:53pm

These days an opera singer really needs to have acting chops. Gone are the days of “park and bark”. A degree in opera has very intensive study of languages and history. You need to really understand the history of the time the opera is set in. My son works on understanding the history, politics, everyday life and the art and “technology” of the time. The depth of understanding of music is intense and the papers he writes are well beyond throwing something together because it doesn’t matter because he’s a singer and all of that academic stuff isn’t important. Opera is a very academic art form. Even singers who have successful careers still do a lot of studying. I think this is why most singers go ahead and get their masters degree, there is so much to learn you can’t get it all in during undergrad. Look up Thomas Hampson and some of his current projects.

I think the biggest objection that most opera singers have regarding the “popera” singers is that they are not opera singers they are classical singers. They could not perform in an opera. An opera singer does not use a microphone, they must sing through/over the orchestra. Nothing wrong with being a classical singer, at all, just don’t confuse the two.

As far as my earlier statement about being glad my son had switched from MT to VP, the main reason is the system that is in place for young opera singers, while not perfect, definitely gives them a place to start. Most successful opera singer teach and mentor young singers, share their connections and in some cases promote them. The YAP system and the Resident Artist programs gives professional experience and tremendous opportunity to work and make connections. MT has none of this.

There is an eye opening book called “Making it on Broadway”, by David Wienir and Jodie Langle, that every aspiring MT performer should read.

While neither road is easy or success assured in any way. I find that as a mom, I am less worried with my son on the VP track.

-My Tangent

Mezzo_sMama · February 18, 2012, 3:47pm

megpmom- you have my admiration!

I am going to go off on a diatribe here, so either read it or skip along. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could package our kids’ hopes and dreams up in a neat little bulleted list and add up the pros and cons as numbers and come up with totals that give clear direction? Doesn’t work that way, and anyone who expects it to is in for a rude awakening.

Nothing is a sure bet, and stradmom gave the perfect answer. The OP has been phrasing questions of this sort for quite some time now, but we’ve yet to hear what his D really wants- does she have a burning passion for any of the fields? Is she willing to put in the long hours and face the rejections that are a part of these fields? It can seem even more personal when the voice is concerned because the instrument is “internal”- can’t be improved be buying a more expensive piece of equipment. Does she really know what is required of a course of study for the different majors, the amount of competition, has she talked to people actively working in the fields (and in the case of MT, those who have graduated within the past 6 or so years, when the type of training and importance of the school became really important), and has she been realistically evaluated by professionals outside of your home area? I say the last one because too often kids are well known locally, but it has to be remembered that in top programs, ALL of the kids were great in their schools/areas. Answers to those questions would give more insight.
Ultimately, it’s not about what a parent wants- although an argument can be made that if one is paying for it, they have a say in the matter; but having seen, first-hand in two generations, the alienation that can come of such an authoritative approach, I wouldn’t recommend that route.

First, you can not assume “equal talent” across the 3 majors. The type of voice needed for VP differs widely from that which will succeed on American Idol and gain a pop recording contract. MT today requires a full belt, it didn’t pre-1965 but try to make it now without it and no decent program would even accept a student. A student training for a career in classical voice will be prevented from even auditioning for an MT role which requires belting.

Next, all programs aren’t equal either. The number of schools offering MT degrees has exploded since “Wicked” and “Glee” made little girls dream of careers on Broadway. The number of jobs is limited, even when you reach as far as including cruise lines, etc, and there are not enough positions for the graduates seeking employment- and remember that there are more and more pouring into that market each year. There are even schools which offer admittance to MT programs without audition! Check out the MT board each year as acceptances come in and you’ll see sad posts from kids who were the stars of their high schools who auditioned for 8-10 colleges and didn’t gain even one acceptance. (Frankly, that same thing happens with VP auditions). From what I see of MT students who are able to secure gainful employment after graduation, the great majority come from schools which offer opportunities for their seniors to have a “showcase” in NYC where they get exposure to agents and maybe a few casting directors. There are “Equity” calls and “Open” calls for casting and it’s expected that many of those in line will get typed-out just on visual appearance- brunette when they were envisioning a blond, 5’2" when they wanted someone much taller, etc. So many factors not even within the person’s control…

VP majors have a long road ahead of them. Four years of undergrad with little or no “stage time”, gen ed classes, three languages, diction,dance, acting, theory, music history, etc. More academics in VP than in the other two majors, as a rule. Graduate school is a must and if one is really talented and aspires to a career in a major house, they must spend another 2-3 years in a top YAP while competing all over the world. Then maybe a fest contract in one of the many German houses or in the chorus of some US house while continuing to take lessons and compete… Not going to be making a “comfortable living” for 10 years after graduation from undergrad. I don’t agree that this is the most “impressive” degree because go and tell the average person that your kid is a vocal performance major and they’ll say," Oh, like Susan Boyle,right?" Aauugghh!! The basic education in this does afford a student opportunities to pursue graduate school in other fields though, even in medical or law school.

I can’t speak with any definitive knowledge about popular music degrees, but if the recent Grammy awards were any indication, a lot of specialized training might not be as important there. Adele is living in a 7 million pound mansion but is a walking example of what not to do as a singer. She has no proper training and no technique whatsoever and her throat paid the price. Surgery has removed the lesion, but without retraining her speaking voice ( her dialectic speaking is full of glottal stops which place a lot of strain on the vocal chords and folds) as well as her singing voice and ditching the cigarettes, nothing will change. She’s announce that she is “taking 5 years off in order to concentrate on her personal life”- that’s code for “My voice is shot and I’ll take the $$ and leave now”! This seems like the field to go into of one wants an early payoff, but realistically, how many kids make it?

There are no answers,the arts are subjective. There is a quantitative demand for “x” number of doctors, dentists, accountants, chemical engineers, etc. How many openings are there each year for someone singing Carmen, Rosina, Papageno, Tonio, or for Julie Jordan, Ado Annie,Clara Johnson, Emile de Becque or J.Pierrepont Finch ? Then consider the variables in pay scale: Joyce DiDonato or Diana Damrau may get $20K plus expenses for a run of 5 Il barbiere di Siviglias but an young singer might make $200 per show for singing Rosina in Louisville. But it is very possible to make a nice living singing comprimario roles and never sing a lead. although this is more the case for a guy or an older mezzo or contralto. A 22 year old in “How to Succeed” playing in Fargo won’t see but a tiny fraction of what Dan Radcliffe was paid on Broadway, nor will a young woman singing Clara in Sacramento net what Kelli O’Hara did at Lincoln Center.

No matter how many times these types of questions are posed they can not be reduced to simple quantitative answers. If that is desired in order to compare potential careers then one would be better served to direct one’s offspring into competitive swimming or ski racing ( not diving or free style skiing) where the clock is the ultimate adjudicator, or have them concentrate in science and math (can one really MAKE a kid do anything like that?!!). I return to asking the OP what his D desires from life? If I recall correctly, she is a junior in HS now- if she doesn’t have a clear preference for one of the three fields, then the time has come for her to look at all of them, see what is required and decide what she is prepared to do to achieve what she wants. If she hates dance or can’t belt at all then MT would be easy to rule out; in turn, if she doesn’t have an aptitude for languages or detests music theory, then she could pass on VP. I’d assume that pop/commercial voice would have its own exclusionary criteria. If she can get her options down it will be easier. If you look on the MT forum, you’ll see that there are some “middle of the road” schools where she could audition for MT and VP-in that case, neither would be a top program but it might buy her a year to make a clear choice and then transfer elsewhere.

Maybe the OP’s daughter should register on CC and ask some questions for herself? There are a lot of students on the forums who would be happy to correspond with her and offer their insight.

K8sDad · February 18, 2012, 7:26pm

I’m sorry you seem so upset. I honestly only asked this for fun - a chance to state a quick opinion along the lines of “boxers vs briefs”. My D has visited several schools, spoken with instructors and finalized her list of schools.

I only wanted to pose a fun “what do you think” to pass the time. I guess you had a lot of time to pass! :-)

Again, if I did anything to provoke such a personal attack, I do apologize.

oldccuser · February 18, 2012, 7:31pm

LOL @ how quick a joke/fun thread can turn into an all-out too-serious debbie downer thread in here :)

I mean, I knew it was gonna get there eventually, but I’m thoroughly impressed by the brevity it took :)

To music, everyone!

LGSMom · February 18, 2012, 8:25pm

K8sDad,

Glad to hear your daughter has made some choices. Many students will start working on audition pieces a year in advance. It would be difficult trying to prepare for all three, in addition to working on foundational skills & resume-building accomplishments, which are different for all three.

fisheee · February 18, 2012, 9:23pm

This thread reminds me of that inevitable situation at Q & A sessions where audience members are invited to ask a “brief and succinct question”, and then the panel has to stifle their groans as the questioner goes on about their last vacation while laboriously making their way to the end of the so-called ‘question’, though what the question is, or whether indeed you could put a question mark at the end of their monologue is highly debatable!

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Dual thread: Which Major is less risky?

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