Duke, Berkeley, UMinn? --- bioengineering/biotech-ish and/or undecided

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I'll get right to it:</p>

<p>I got into:</p>

<p>{Name -- financial aid info}
(engineering school at every institution)</p>

<p>Berkeley -- OOS, no grants, possibly Alumni Scholarship
CMU -- probably no grants
Duke -- no grants
UMich -- OOS, no grants
UMinn -- in-state, total cost about 7K/yr
UWisc -- in-state, total cost about 20K/yr
UCLA -- OOS, but 7K/yr Dean's Scholarship</p>

<p>I want to do something like biotechnology or bioengineering and develop really cool technologies or do some research about chemical processes or something like that so that I can perceive the work I do as "state-of-the-art" and get my name into a popular science magazine; for example, designing nano-robots that do internal surgery or solving the question, "why does cyanide smell like almonds?" I also probably want to do some business or go to MBA school later on in order to not get a dead-end job and hopefully get wealthy.</p>

<p>I've pretty much narrowed it down to Duke, Berkeley, and UMinn. My parents say they'll be able to pay about $10,000 per year if I keep my grades up, and I may be able to earn about $10,000 total in my four years of college, so both Berkeley and Duke would leave me with $150,000 in debt to be paid off over about 20 years or so at a cost of $300,000 or so.... UMinn would leave me debt-free.</p>

<p>So, where should I go?</p>

<p>I'm considering the following factors:</p>

<p>Cost -- huge issue here, as I found out relatively recently, to my unpleasant surprise... Can I realistically hope to be able to pay like $3000 per month right after leaving college?</p>

<p>Student body:
Berkeley -- 25,000 UGs, 90% in-state, 45% Asian (I'm an Soviet-born Ashkenazi Jew), average SAT ~1970
Duke -- 6000 UGs, 85% out-of-state, fairly diverse, average SAT ~2200
Minnesota -- 35,000 UGs, average SAT probably much lower than both and mostly Midwestern
Will I become more intellectual/worldly with a student body like Duke's than one like Berkeley's? Any comments on the alleged preppiness of Duke?</p>

<p>Grad school admission rates -- Any comment on these would be helpful. Specifically, I'm looking for science and engineering grad school admission rates, and MBA as well; but who knows, my plans may completely change....</p>

<p>Research opportunies</p>

<p>Individual attention from professors</p>

<p>Academic Experience</p>

<p>Depth and breadth of courses -- Berkeley has a huge breadth of courses, and I fear that by picking another school over it I may be missing out on that</p>

<p>The atmosphere</p>

<p>The living conditions -- three-person bedrooms at Berkeley are supposedly the norm, co-ed bathrooms at Berkeley as well (not necessarily a bad thing)</p>

<p>Party scene -- I've never done any partying in high school, but I think I could be successful with girls and stuff (wow, that sounds awkward even in my head at 5 am...) for reasons that I have recently discovered. How is the party scene at all of those schools? However, I don't want something focused on partying, but I do want to drink sometimes and randomly hook up; I've heard that's really fun....</p>

<p>Lastly, what do people think about this plan, suggested by a relative or two: go to UMinn for a year, save like $40,000, then transfer to Berkeley or Duke. Is that realistic, possible, convenient?</p>

<p>Any advice would be appreciated.... The deadline is really looming....</p>

2

<p>I've just read over my post, and please note that I do not believe there will be any racial tensions between me and Asians at any school.... I'm just saying, Duke is supposedly pretty diverse....</p>

3

<p>Also, how's this for a plan:
Going to Duke for a year or two for the great underclassman experience and stuff, and then transferring to Berkeley for the other three or two years and take advantage of the fact that I can live in a more comfortable off-campus apartment or co-op there and take advantage of their huge variety of courses and the various opportunities there...?</p>

<p>I thought of that gem by myself.</p>

<p>I realize though, that it'd be really hard to leave Duke for anything except perhaps Stanford or MIT....</p>

<p>Oh, and another question: Why do Duke students love their undergraduate experience so much there that they donate a lot? Might the fact that many of Duke's students are already very rich have something to do with it?</p>

4

<p>Igor, stick to Minnesota. You are going to study Engineering, and going $150k into debt for Engineering makes no sense, not even if your option were MIT. In fact, going over $50k into debt for any university, regardless of how good it is or what you want to major in makes no sense.</p>

<p>I do not see why attending Duke would make you more worldy or intellectual than attending Cal. I would consider Cal/Berkeley as intellectual an experience as there can possibly be. </p>

<p>Duke's alumni donation rate is high, but not atypical. Literally 50-60 colleges and universities have alumni donation rates in the 40%-60% range. I think it is more a function of the culture at those schools than the wealth of the students or the love of the school. My sister attended Georgetown, and until this day, she receives letters from Georgetown on an annual basis asking her to donate money to the school. All she has to do is follow the instrtrcutions on the letter to set up a automatic annual deposit from her account to the University for a sum of $100 or more. I attended Michigan and have never received a request for donation in the last 12 years. I wouldn't know how to go about donating money to Michigan. I would probably have to contact to development or alumni office and wait for an eternity before actually getting any assistance. And it goes beyond reaching out to the alums. Some colleges and universities will instill the culture of donating back to the school into most if not all of their students. Others will not. </p>

<p>At any rate, I recommend you attend Minnesota (unless Cal comes back to you with a scholarship...I am surprised Michigan did not offer you a scholraship), graduate debt-free and with a 3.7+ GPA, work for Medtronic or Baxter (both of which recruit HEAVILY at the University of Minnesota thanks to its geographic proximity) for a few years, and then, go for a MBA. Alternatively, you could go for a PhD in Engineering. Either way, you would spare yourself the agony of indebtedness and be in a great position to hit the workforce and/or graduate school.</p>

5

<p>Hmm.... Many people say that loans can be paid off, but a college experience stays with you for a lifetime. How would you, Alexandre (or anyone else) respond to this rhetoric?
I must confess, I feel myself being pulled towards Duke simply because I think I'll enjoy myself more there.... I'm not sure if I'd like to work at Medtronic or anything, but maybe....</p>

<p>I also know a couple of people that I know that got into private schools "better" than the U of Minn, but opted to go there because of the large scholarship and that now regret not going to the smaller private school. It seems that they're not as happy at the U due to various reasons.
However, Alexandre, I really like the sound of your plan in general.... Well, umm, either way I'm leaning, more advice would be helpful :-).</p>

6

<p>Loans can indeed be paid off. Loans of $20k or $30k. A loan of $150k will, like your college experience, stay with you for a lifetime! I don't think you realize just how much money $150 k is. What happens if you wnt to buy a house when you start working. On top of that $150k debt, you will have to take a $150k mortgage. Between the college debt and the mortgage, you will be paying most of your disposable income.</p>

<p>I am sure you will have regrets either way. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. If you go to Duke, you may have a great time, but you will be surrounded by very wealthy people who will have far more money to blow on fun activities and you will always wonder if the huge debt will be worth the experience. On the other hand, if you go to Minnesota, you will always wonder what Duke would have been like. Of course, only you can make the decision, but I think $150 k of debt is the sort of debt one can afford if going for a Law degree at a top 10 Law School or for Medical school. In both cases, one is probably looking at earning in the $200-$400k by the time they are 35 and with that sort of income, paying one's debt is relatively easy. But for an undergraduate degree in Engineering, the ROI is just not worth getting into that kind of debt.</p>

<p>Maybe Wisconsin would be a good midpoint. You could probably graduate from Wisconsin with less than $20k in debts and that would be manageable. Plus, Wisconsin has a great campus and Madison is one of the funnest and hippest college towns.</p>

7

<p>Dang.... I'm still sorry to hear that 150 K is so imposing.... Alexandre, you're right, I don't actually know the value of money that well.... It's just that I'd really rather go to a school where my classmates will be very smart. I guess that perhaps I may be willing to go into a career that I like less if it means being able to attend a more fun university and a lot of prosperity in the long run.
You mentioned that lawyers and medical doctors make a lot of money. Do you (or, again, anyone else) know how much someone with an undergrad double major in business and engineering from Duke would make? I've heard that some employers actually have contracts whereby they will help pay off college debt in addition to a salary. Any comment on that? Or any get-rich-quick schemes to pay for college :-)?</p>

<p>I'd just really rather go to a school where everyone is super-smart.... If there's any way to make this happen, I'll try to find it. That's kind of what I'm doing now....</p>

<p>(Plus, despite its great professors and other good qualities, I have an eternal grudge against the U of Minnesota for not giving me a full ride when I had a 3.87 but was 85th percentile in my class, especially when they gave at least 20 other kids that I know full rides, and most of the kids where less academically impressive than I was.)</p>

<p>Like, I don't have to commit to engineering.... Right now, I don't see it as a big deal to give up what I might love to do for something that I might hate, namely finance or management or MIS or anything that'll give me a big salary. If that'll get me a great college experience as well as wealth, I'm willing....</p>

<p>So, is there any financially justifiable way to leave Duke or Berkeley with a $150,000 loan?</p>

8

<p>It would be a gamble. Duke and Michigan, and to a lesser degree Cal, open doors to IBanking. At Michigan or Cal, you would be better off doing it through their B-Schools since they have top ranked BBA programs. At Duke, you can major in pretty much anything, though Economics would probably be most appropriate. As an IBanker, you could potentially make a lot of money through bonuses...but it is a HUGE risk. A lot would of things would have to happen in sequence for you to get there.</p>

<p>Personally, I would not recommend it. I would say go for either Wisconsin or Minnesota.</p>

9

<p>I agree with Alexandre. </p>

<p>UMinn has a top-rated chemical engineering program...you could take some biochemical engineering/biotechnology courses as electives. $7k/year is a bargain. If I were you I'd save the money...UMinn will give you the best "bang for your buck".</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
So, is there any financially justifiable way to leave Duke or Berkeley with a $150,000 loan?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No. There is no sane way to make that choice, if you have to pay off that debt through the money you must earn yourself.</p>

11

<p>You have a really tough decision to make here it seems but what is strange is the fact that your parents are only willing to donate 10k per year for your college education. Do they understand that the typical cost of a private school per year is a lot more than that? The fact that you didn't get any financial aid from Duke indicates that your family is fairly well-off and that means they should be able to cover most of the cost of the education. DEFINITELY talk to them about this matter and try to come to an agreeable compromise. Also, call the Duke Financial Aid office and inform them about your situation.</p>

<p>The reason you should take these steps is because quite simply, Duke is FAR FAR SUPERIOR to any school that you are considering besides Berkeley. If you're going into BME and business, then the difference in job opportunities/prestige is even greater between Duke and those other state schools. Duke's location in the Research Triangle makes it a prime location for any biotech or bioengineering research or employment. If you want to develop biotech or study chemical process, then RTP might be the best location in the entire country for you to do this and Duke students are HEAVILY RECRUITED in this location. Some of the most cutting-edge biomedical research will be being conducted right in your midst if you come to Duke.</p>

<p>Now lets talk about Duke itself compared to UMinn or UW. Duke students are much more intelligent than kids you will find at these state schools and this will greatly enhance your college experience. The amount of racial and socioeconomic diversity is mindboggling in comparison to these state schools. Duke's campus is gorgeous and you will get much better advising here since the school is very undergrad-focused and it has a small contingent of undergrads. You will have the opportunity to do research with the most top-notch BME professors in the world and internship opportunities are plentiful. If you want to go into business, then Duke is the most recruited school in the country besides HYPS, Penn and MIT.</p>

<p>I disagree with Alexandre that trying to get an i-banking position after graduation is a risky move. Most Duke students who are qualified will get an offer at a bulge-bracket firm for IB. If not bulge-bracket, you will almost be guaranteed to get a position in a mid-tier firm or a botique.</p>

<p>You will probably make anywhere from 60-100k right out of graduation from Duke. So, you can pay back your debts in like 5-10 years. Then, you will still have the rest of your life to enjoy the value of your Duke degree.</p>

<p>Duke offers arguably the best overall undergraduate experience in the country besides Stanford because it has big-time athletics, good weather, a great social scene, a gorgeous campus, etc.</p>

<p>If there is a significant difference in cost between Berkeley and Duke, choose Berkeley. Otherwise, I would go with Duke.</p>

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<p>EAD, you think you can pay off a $150k debt in 5-10 years on a 60k-100k salary? You do realize that after tax, he'd be left with $40k-$65k. And after rent, transportation and food, he will be down to virtually nothing because the higher salaries are usually paid in more expensive areas. All in all, it would take most people well over a decade to pay off a $150k debt.</p>

<p>As for Duke students landing jobs with IBanks at will, that could be about to change now that the financial industry is tanking. I wouldn't count on too many IBanks recruiting on campuses and starting packages and bonuses will probably take a hit. But if he does want to go the IBanking route, Duke and Michigan are both very good and Cal would be good too. Like I said, those three schools are worth considering, but it is still a risk. </p>

<p>And your comment that Duke is "far superior" to his other choices isn't quite true. Duke is actually equal to Cal and Michigan and not that much better than Wisconsin. It is significantly better than Minnesota, but not by quite enough to justify a $150k debt.</p>

13

<p>^ If he wants to major in chemical/biochemical engineering, Minnesota by FAR EXCEEDS Duke...because Duke doesn't even offer that engineering discipline. ;)</p>

14

<p>Paying off loans for a decade isn't that big of a deal though. With bonuses, he could rake in between 120-150k in i-banking which will allow him to pay back the loans earlier. As far as the financial industry goes, it is on a low right now but there will most likely be a bull market by the time the OP graduates from college. Downturns don't last forever.</p>

<p>If he's considering BME, then I think Duke is a lot better than all the other schools. If it's another engineering discipline like ME or ECE, then Cal, UMich and Duke are roughly similar. If he's looking to get on Wall Street, Duke is the better choice followed by Ross and Haas.</p>

<p>Alexandre, you can either believe that all the top 25 schools in the country are roughly equal in educational quality or separate the top 25 into tiers and differentiate among them. If you say Michigan or Cal is the same as Duke, then I hope you believe that UMich or Cal are roughly similar to Harvard. If you don't, then we clearly interpret the undergraduate rankings of American colleges very differently.</p>

15

<p>Biomedical engineering =/= Bioengineering. Biomedical engineering, IMHO, is too limiting to be actually considered a true engineering discipline.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I want to do something like biotechnology or bioengineering and develop really cool technologies or do some research about chemical processes or something like that so that I can perceive the work I do as "state-of-the-art" and get my name into a popular science magazine; for example, designing nano-robots that do internal surgery or solving the question, "why does cyanide smell like almonds?"

[/quote]

From this interest description I would recommend chemical engineering as a major.</p>

16

<p>EAD, I do not believe in the USNWR ranking. I have my own standards which are, in my opinion, far more accurate. I believe in the grouping of universities...always have. </p>

<p>According to my grouping, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Stanford and Yale are roughly equal. They are followed by roughly 10-12 universities, including Cal, Duke and Michigan. Then, after those 10-12 universities, you have another 15 or so universities, and that group includes Emory, UCLA, Vaderbilt, Wisconsin etc...</p>

<p>So I do not believe all top 25 universities are the same. But I do not blindly follow the USNWR. It is flawed and it does not represent the sentiment of those who truly matter. Of course, this is just my opinion, but my opinion is shared by the majority of corporate recruiters (I should know, I am a senior HR professional) and the majority of the academic world.</p>

17

<p>ALEXANDRE is right. Looking back at your choices. I think you should be deciding between 7K a year at UCLA and MN. I would choose UCLA, but MN is a great university. If you want diversity UCLA is it.</p>

18

<p>Oh, sorry.... 7K per year is the /scholarship/ I got at UCLA. The total cost would now be like $41,000.</p>

<p>What most of you guys are saying sounds like some pretty disheartening news.... I didn't exactly have my mind set on Duke, but it would've been really nice.</p>

<p>This is kind of unrelated, but has anyone ever tried to go on a game show or something like Who Wants to Be a Millionaire or something in order to win money for college? I know that sounds far-fetched; I just really don't want to spend more time at the U.... </p>

<p>Madison may be all right; I've never actually visited....</p>

19

<p>Also:
"[...] I think $150 k of debt is the sort of debt one can afford if going for a Law degree at a top 10 Law School or for Medical school. In both cases, one is probably looking at earning in the $200-$400k by the time they are 35 and with that sort of income, paying one's debt is relatively easy."</p>

<p>Don't engineering MBA's make a lot of money?</p>

<p>Oh, and how's this for a career: (bio/biomed/chem engineering) patent lawyer. Do those guys make enough money to pay off 150 K?</p>

20

<p>Madison has a nicer college town feel...If you want to go away and have that experience, Wisconsin would be a fantastic choice.</p>

<p>U Minnesota, like I mentioned before, is fantastic (especially ChemE) but the campus is more integrated with the bigger city environment of Minneapolis/St. Paul.</p>