<p>All of Chicago's students aren't of an intellectual bent however Pizzagirl. MOST probably are but students will inevitably still come across fellow classmates who are party-hardy. What Chicago lacks is a cohesive social scene, Greek or not. From what I have heard from Chicago friends, it appears that Chicago's social scene is comprised of random house parties, disoriganized frat parties and sporadic trips to the city. There doesn't seem to be a constant social outlet which is probably a negative because everybody's schedules are different and we all have free times at different points throughout the week.</p>
<p>For example at Duke, if I know beforehand that the only day I can party is on a Wednesday and a Friday night, then I can plan accordingly because its basically common knowledge what's happening on what night from Wed. to Thur. after you've been on campus for a while. At Chicago, I would have to rely upon some second-hand hearsay from a friend about some upperclassman's apartment party sometime during the week/weekend, when there's actually a chance that's one of the nights I have to study and stay in. This can get very frustrating I would imagine for a vast majority of kids as most students rely on constant, credible sources of entertainment on the weekends to motivate them during the week.</p>
<p>Chicago is certainly a great school. However, I still say it would be an inferior choice in comparison to Duke for a VAST MAJORITY of high school seniors. Most kids want to make a lot of money out of college. Most kids want to party while I am in college. If you polled a large sample of high school seniors on whether they would prefer to go to a school that offers a strong social life and incredible job/grad school placement or a school which has more of an intellectual culture and whose students prefer to go into academia, MANY MORE would choose the former rather than the latter. If more kids want to go to a school, that makes it a more desirable institution since it's better institution relative to their needs. If a school is better relative to the needs of the vast majority of kids out there in comparison to another school, then that school is better, which is why I think Duke is better than Chicago.</p>
<p>And I still contend that you don't seem to understand that "more desirable by a broader range of people" is not necessarily BETTER. Just BROADER. You really don't seem to get that something can be niche and be just as good as the other something which is broader in appeal.</p>
<p>"For example at Duke, if I know beforehand that the only day I can party is on a Wednesday and a Friday night, then I can plan accordingly because its basically common knowledge what's happening on what night from Wed. to Thur. after you've been on campus for a while. At Chicago, I would have to rely upon some second-hand hearsay from a friend about some upperclassman's apartment party sometime during the week/weekend, when there's actually a chance that's one of the nights I have to study and stay in. This can get very frustrating I would imagine for a vast majority of kids as most students rely on constant, credible sources of entertainment on the weekends to motivate them during the week."</p>
<p>Where do you get that "most students rely on constant, credible sources of entertainment on the weekends to motivate them during the week"? That may be YOUR particular taste or preferences, in which case Duke suits you.</p>
<p>"All of Chicago's students aren't of an intellectual bent however Pizzagirl. MOST probably are but students will inevitably still come across fellow classmates who are party-hardy. What Chicago lacks is a cohesive social scene, Greek or not. "</p>
<p>It lacks a social scene that is TO YOUR PARTICULAR TASTE. That's all. So, YOU shouldn't go there. That has nothing to do with what other students should do.</p>
<p>I wasn't referring to my particular taste in a social scene at all in my post-rather I was talking about the organization and accessibility of social outlets for students. I suppose you could argue that for a group of anti-social kids who are afraid at the mere prospect of being within a hundred miles of alcohol, girls and potheads, Duke might not be the best choice.</p>
<p>I still maintain that the goal of an world-class institution, which is something that Chicago and Duke both strive to be, should be to appeal to a very broad group of students who will inevitably fit into a variety of niches. That's what makes a college unique and interesting. I have friends/acquaintances who have incredibly diverse interests/personalities at Duke and this greatly enhances my experience. If Chicago just tries to fill the uber-intellectual niche with the students it admits, then it is robbing its undergraduates of the ability to experience personal growth through their interactions with people of different personalities. It is clear that Chicago is NOT AT ALL aiming to be a school of anti-social nerds any longer however as it is abandoning the Common Application for next year. This is a clear move on the university's part to increase its selectivity and appeal to students who might have otherwise not considered Chicago due to its lengthy application</p>
Do you have a link or cite for that Duke admissions policy for North Carolina? It's kind of surprising given that Duke is a private school.</p>
<p>Also, your own personal sampling notwithstanding, I'd be very surprised if Duke is actually MORE selective in the Northeast than the non-HYP Ivies. Generally, private schools like Duke seeking national diversity are, if anything, LESS selective outside of their home regions, and not MORE selective. Also, the non-HYP Ivies receive a significant percentage of their applications from the Northeast (no doubt a greater percentage than does Duke), and common sense (not to mention statistics and practical experience) would dictate that they are MORE selective in their home region than they are nationally, so that their general admit rates--which are already lower than Duke's--would be even lower in the Northeast.</p>
<p>I don't know if it is true or not though, if I'm wrong, I apologize for my statement.
I don't know if the percentage is truly as high as 36%!</p>
<p>I read another post on here which said something about requiring Duke to have 15% of people from North Carolina or they will lose their charter from some private uni group.. yet again, I am not sure if this is true.</p>
<p>"I still maintain that the goal of an world-class institution, which is something that Chicago and Duke both strive to be, should be to appeal to a very broad group of students who will inevitably fit into a variety of niches. That's what makes a college unique and interesting."</p>
<p>Chicago doesn't want to be just like Duke / Stanford / Northwestern / et al. They revel in being a bit off the beaten path. Great for them! How boring if all colleges were just like Duke / Stanford / Northwestern et al.</p>
<p>In any event, I'm pretty sure that Duke is not in general more selective in the Northeast than the non-HYP Ivies. In fact, from everything I've ever heard and read, the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic regions are THE most selective regions for the non-HYP Ivies.</p>
<p>Mondo
[quote]
I chose Duke over Chicago because Duke held this more 'selective' factor. In the Northeast, Duke is more selective than most of the lower Ivies. This is because Duke has to have a certain percentage of its students from North Carolina. I know of more people on Long Island who got into Penn and not Duke than the latter.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How do you reach that conclusion? Just because you know some people from Long Island that did not get into Duke and got into ivies?</p>
<p>School Percent 2007 Lowest Acceptances</p>
<p>1-Juilliard School (NY) 7%
2-Curtis Institute of Music (PA) 7%
3-Yale University (CT) 9%
4-Harvard University (MA) 9%
5-Cooper Union (NY) 10%
6-Princeton University (NJ) 10%
7-Stanford University (CA) 11%
8-Columbia University (NY) 12%
9-College of the Ozarks (MO) 12%
10-Massachusetts Institute of Technology 13%
11-Brown University (RI) 14%
12-United States Naval Academy (MD)* 14%
13-United States Military Academy (NY)* 15%
14-Dartmouth College (NH) 16%
15-California Institute of Technology 17%
16-Pomona College (CA) 18%
17-University of Pennsylvania 18%
18-United States Air Force Academy (CO)* 19%
19-Amherst College (MA) 19%
20-Brigham Young University–Hawaii 19%
21-Swarthmore College (PA) 19%
22-Williams College (MA) 19%
23-CUNY–York College * 20%
24-Tougaloo College (MS) 20%
25-Washington University in St. Louis 21%
26-Bowdoin College (ME) 22%
27-Middlebury College (VT) 22%
28-Georgetown University (DC) 22%
29-Claremont McKenna College (CA) 22%
30-Duke University (NC) 23%
31-College of the Southwest (NM) 23%
32-Rice University (TX) 24%
33-University of California–Berkeley * 24%
34-United States Coast Guard Academy (CT)* 24%
35-Cornell University (NY) 25%</p>
<p>The only ivy that is less selective than Duke, is Cornell. All the others are much more selective. I have found out, that Duke is very popular but I believe your comment about about Duke's selectivity in the North East is very far fetched. Students from NE rather stay in that area for the most part and are more likely to choose the ivies and MIT/ Stanford.</p>
<p>Anyway, the national statistics show that Duke is only barely more selective than Cornell and that includes all the people from the South who may find Duke more atractive . This weakens your theory further...Don't you think?</p>
<p>"While many university rankings fluctuate wildly from year to year, The Consus Group comprehensive methodology produces a stable, accurate picture of Americas best colleges and universities."</p>
<p>(Just note Duke's ranking and U of Chicago)</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard University<br></li>
<li>Princeton University<br></li>
<li>Stanford University<br></li>
<li>Columbia University<br></li>
<li>California Institute of Technology<br></li>
<li>Yale University<br></li>
<li>Massachusetts Institute of Technology<br></li>
<li>Brown University<br></li>
<li>University of California, Berkeley<br></li>
<li>University of California, Los Angeles<br></li>
<li>University of Pennsylvania<br></li>
<li>Dartmouth College<br></li>
<li>Rice University<br></li>
<li>Duke University<br></li>
<li>Swarthmore College<br></li>
<li>Amherst College<br></li>
<li>University of California, San Diego<br></li>
<li>Williams College<br></li>
<li>Georgetown University<br></li>
<li>Cornell University<br></li>
<li>Northwestern University<br></li>
<li>Pomona College<br></li>
<li>U.S. Naval Academy<br></li>
<li>University of California, Santa Barbara<br></li>
<li>University of California, Santa Cruz<br></li>
<li>University of California, Davis<br></li>
<li>Harvey Mudd College<br></li>
<li>Haverford College<br></li>
<li>U.S. Military Academy<br></li>
<li>University of Notre Dame<br></li>
<li>The Johns Hopkins University<br></li>
<li>Washington University<br></li>
<li>University of Virginia<br></li>
<li>Middlebury College<br></li>
<li>Bowdoin College<br></li>
<li>Claremont McKenna College<br></li>
<li>Washington & Lee University<br></li>
<li>Davidson College<br></li>
<li>U.S. Air Force Academy<br></li>
<li>Tufts University<br></li>
<li>Barnard College<br></li>
<li>College of William & Mary<br></li>
<li>Wesleyan University<br></li>
<li>Carnegie Mellon<br></li>
<li>University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill<br></li>
<li>Colgate University<br></li>
<li>Wellesley College<br></li>
<li>The University of Chicago<br></li>
<li>Vassar College<br></li>
<li>New York University<br></li>
<li>Colby College<br></li>
<li>Carleton College<br></li>
<li>Emory University<br></li>
<li>University of Southern California<br></li>
<li>Grinnell College<br></li>
<li>Case Western Reserve University<br></li>
<li>Brandeis University<br></li>
<li>Cooper Union for Advancement of Science and Art<br></li>
<li>Wake Forest University<br></li>
<li>Boston College<br></li>
<li>University of Michigan, Ann Arbor<br></li>
<li>Vanderbilt University<br></li>
<li>Pepperdine University<br></li>
<li>Bryn Mawr College<br></li>
<li>Macalester College<br></li>
</ol>
<p>"The Consus Group uses the following methodology to compile its annual college rankings:</p>
<p>Published Rankings: Published Rankings reflect current and historical ratings by numerous sources, including: U.S. News, Gourman Report, etc. An institutions aggregate published ranking comprises 50% of its overall score.</p>
<p>Selectivity: Selectivity measures the quality of schools admitted candidates. Selectivity is based on the percent of applicants admitted, SAT scores, and the percent of admitted applicants in the top 10% of their high school classes. An institutions composite selectivity comprises 45% of its overall score.</p>
<p>Yield: Yield reflects the percentage of admitted candidates that matriculate to the admitting university. An institutions yield comprises 5% of its overall score "</p>
<p>A strong traditional greek scene and preppy vibe will inevitably overpower a more hipster or laid back scene. If you are of the latter persuasion, you will have to "find your niche" </p>
<p>Likewise, if you are a preppy jock at my school, Brown, you will also have ot "find your niche" </p>
<p>Having the appropriate social scene handed to you on a silver platter is vastly superior</p>
<p>So no, I would disagree with you in that the VAST MAJORITY of high school seniors would prefer Duke. I'm sorry but how many people were in the Home Coming Court? Not many.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I have found out, that Duke is very popular but I believe your comment about about Duke's selectivity in the North East is very far fetched. Students from NE rather stay in that area for the most part and are more likely to choose the ivies and MIT/ Stanford.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Where is your proof of that? Besides that New York Times article!
You don't prove anything!
It could very likely be true that someone who gets into Penn and not Duke would have picked Penn in the first place and same for the other schools. It may be true that someone from the Northeast would have picked an Ivy over Duke anyway, but you don't prove that the lower Ivies are easier to get into from the Northeast than Duke. Somebody's argument got shot in the foot too?</p>
<p>Do the math. If Duke must take a certain percentage from the Carolinas, and the acceptance rate there is higher. By the law of averages... what do we get?? An acceptance rate lower than 21% in the Northeast!! Finally, while acceptance rate is a main factor of my argument, acceptance rate isn't the only factor that determines selectivity.</p>
<p>Nationally, Duke ranks 30 in selectivity. All selectivity rankings put Duke below ivies except Cornell. Period.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do the math. If Duke must take a certain percentage from the Carolinas, and the acceptance rate there is higher. By the law of averages... what do we get?? An acceptance rate lower than 21% in the Northeast!!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In order to do the math, I would need to know how many students from the North East apply to Duke. This is something that I do not know,and that you are blatantly speculating about. Just because Dukes' acceptance nationally was 23% ( not 21%, btw) and they must take a certain percentage from the Carolinas, does not mean that the "regional acceptance for NE" is less than that. It may turn out to be way higher.</p>
<p>Finally, i am curious about what factors have you decided that determine "selectivity" ? In every ranking that i have seen, selectivity is based on the acceptance rate. I am really failing to see your point.</p>
<p>45percenter
[quote]
In any event, I'm pretty sure that Duke is not in general more selective in the Northeast than the non-HYP Ivies. In fact, from everything I've ever heard and read, the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic regions are THE most selective regions for the non-HYP Ivies.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And you are 100% correct. I have seen exactly the same reports.</p>
<p>Duke's selectivity is about the same as Dartmouth, Columbia, U Penn, and Brown and ahead of Cornell. Avg SATs are probably the best standardized indicator we have:</p>
<p>1445 Duke</p>
<p>1450 Dartmouth
1440 Brown
1435 Columbia
1430 U Penn
1385 Cornell</p>
<p>As for acceptance rates, these are clearly influenced by geographic factors and local public alternatives and the likely propensity of NE high school students to apply to a larger than average number of colleges (this is a guess on my part, but I doubt anyone who knows the college scene would disagree). The Northeast has zero highly ranked public universities, so the local competition is all among NE privates, of which there are many, but the Ivies are at the top of this pyramid and thus get, by far, the greatest number of applications. By contrast, Duke competes with U North Carolina, W&M and U Virginia a lot as North Carolina and Virginia are among the single largest sources of applications to Duke and students are a lot less likely to go to a top private with these top public choices available. </p>
<p>Re the reports that are referenced above about Duke’s selectivity in the Northeast, I am intrigued to have a look. Would you please post them? Thanks.</p>
<p>Hawkette, apples to apples please. Cornell Arts and Science and Engineering average SAT scores are above 1385. Not by much mind you, but definitely above the 1400 mark. Last time I checked, Brown, Dartmouth and Duke did not have colleges of Agriculture, Architecture, Hotel Management, Human Ecology or Industrial relations, which, combined, make up more than 50% of the total student body.</p>
<p>hawkette, the median of the middle 50% of SAT scores (which appears to be what you quote above) cannot be used alone to compare selectivity (as US News acknowledges). For example, Stanford's middle 50% median of 1445 is the same as Duke's, but combined with its admit rate of 10%, relatively high yield, makeup of its applicant pool, etc., we know that it is significantly more selective than Duke (with a 23% admit rate and substantially lower yield). Similarly, Columbia's admit rate is 11% and it also has a yield significantly higher than Duke's.</p>
<p>As we know, all of these schools could probably admit classes with signficantly higher SATs, if they decided to base admission decisions primarily on SAT scores. Further, median SAT scores of enrolling classes don't tell us how many applicants there were in any given score range at a given school, so again we don't know how competitive it was for applicants in that score range to gain admission. For example, Duke could admit almost every applicant with a score above 1400 to achieve the 1445 median (and I'm only saying this for illustrative purposes, and not in any way claiming that it actually does), while another school could be more holistic in its admissions decisions, have the same or even a lower median SAT, but actually admit a smaller percentage of students overall AND a smaller percentage of students with SATscores above 1400. Clearly, the second school would be more selective, even though its median SAT score was the same or slightly lower.</p>
<p>I agree that, in a broad sense, the selectivity of Duke and the non-HYP Ivies is comparable. But you also have to look at admit rates and other factors to fully appreciate the relative selectivity of schools (as the Stanford example clearly indicates).</p>
<p>Alex,
I hear you on the comparative stats as lots of colleges are actually a lot more (or a lot less) competitive than they look according to standardized test scores. It sure would be nice if all of these schools published admissions data, including test scores, for each of their individual colleges. I also don't think you can just throw out the data for the lower achieving colleges as the diploma still says "Cornell" and some people will still flaunt that Ivy label. In Cornell's case, they do benefit from a much larger engineering presence vs the other referenced schools so perhaps this all balances out.</p>