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<p>Actually, no, he did.</p>
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<p>Post #67</p>
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<p>I agree, and conceded that point in my post. 
But being a Robertson in itself will set the OP apart from even Princetonians. That, my friend, was my point.</p>
<p>In that case, I disagree with John Adams. I do not believe that the top students at Duke would be merely average by Princeton standards, although I agree that given the choice, most students at Duke would have rather been admitted into, and ulimately attended, Princeton. The EXTREMELY lucky ones get to go to Princeton, the âmerelyâ very fortunate ones end up at Duke. No shame either way.</p>
<p>This said, I do not think the Robertson distinction carries well. Most people not affiliated with Duke, UNC or the state of North Carolina are unaware of that program.</p>
<p>"It is the Dukies that feel this way, not the people from Ol NassauâŠ</p>
<p>âJust the mere fact that there are so many people engaged in a very heated argument over the merits of the Robertson vs. Princeton indicates how very similar, if not equal, they are in how people perceive them.â "</p>
<p>Note I said âvery similarâ and âhow people PERCEIVE them.â Princeton may have a slight edge prestige wise among those âin the know,â but if an employer doesnât know what a Robertson scholar is he wonât care about Princetonâs slight prestige advantage over Duke. Maybe the Princeton applicant to a job wins if he is otherwise exactly equal to the Duke guy. But that would never be the caseâif OP is a Robertson at Duke, and he happens to apply to the same job as a Princeton grad, their alma maters will NOT determine who gets the job.</p>
<p>Oh, and just thought Iâd add Iâm neither a Duke student nor a Princeton studentâpresent or former.</p>
<p>Once again the OP is looking to major in mechanical engineering. Duke is not known for engineering, with the exception of BME, and is NOT the better choice of the two schools for this discipline. Duke is NOT Princeton. It does not carry the same cache as Princeton and is not great for engineering. Princeton is the better choice. The OP can always show his letter of acceptance for the scholarship award but those in the know will understand he turned it down because he wanted to go to a superior engineering program. Too many here on CC are so hung up with the prestige of school they forget that even great schools are not always strong in every area. Some schools need to give away awards like this because frankly without them why would a very top student consider going there over a school like Princeton? Here is a prime example.</p>
<p>Alexandre, truly well said</p>
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<p>First of all, things like going to T14 law or a bulge bracket firm are fairly common for Princeton middle dwellers (and for banking, not uncommon even for bottom dwellers). </p>
<p>Even with the argument that Robertson scholars may be above average at Princeton, Iâd still point out that there are numerically more Princetonians going to those opportunities than Robertson scholars (which is a smaller program). Even proportionally, Iâd guess that the fraction of Princeton above the âRobertson thresholdâ is larger than that proportion at Duke. If your goal is to build a network with a large number of talented students, isnât Princeton the place to be, then?</p>
<p>Again, I can understand if the OP may prioritize something else that may lead him to feel Dukeâs better for him. I just donât buy that either access to professors or post-graduation opportunities give Duke the lead.</p>
<p>Ok, lets start from scratchâŠ</p>
<p>Lets assume that the OP will be a top Princeton student if he attends that great institutionâŠ</p>
<p>now lets compare:</p>
<ol>
<li>The OP as a top Princeton student</li>
</ol>
<p>or</p>
<ol>
<li>The OP as a Robinson, or whatever you call it, scholar at Duke</li>
</ol>
<p>which one would have had the more intellectually challenging and richer experience in college and particularly in the engineering area?</p>
<p>that would be #1 above</p>
<p>which one would be regaded more highly in the job and graduate school market?</p>
<p>that would be #1 above</p>
<p>point
game
set
match</p>
<p>
Actually, a better gauge is simply that people regularly can and do turn down Harvard, Princeton, and the like for scholarships at other schools. Money is often a factor, to be sure, but not always. More importantly, those students do perfectly well afterwards. Hopefully this does not disturb anyoneâs worldview, though I pity you if it does.</p>
<p>Eadad has posted often about his sonâs (easy) decision to turn down Princeton, Stanford, and Yale for the Morehead at UNC, who proceeded to get into the med school of his choice. Curmudgeonâs daughter, fairly known on CC, turned down Yale for a scholarship at Rhodes and was recently admitted to Yale again, this time for med school. Long time posters may also remember Evil Robot, who turned down Yale for a scholarship at Vandy, excelled, and is now working for Google. </p>
<p>Silly Puddy, rjkofnovi, and eatsalot are all correct. Princeton is stronger than Duke in engineering, and it does have a greater brand name both domestically and internationally. It is also true that, should you decide engineering is not your thing, Princeton is generally stronger in the arts and sciences. The advantages of the Robertson are not so great that they put Princeton in unequal footing - especially for the same cost. At the same time, however, it would not be a foolish decision to choose Duke over Princeton, should one believe it is a better fit. The Robertson has about a 75% yield, and most of the scholars who accept have turned down Harvard, Princeton, or the like, including scholars from Australia and New Zealand. Mechanical is one of the slower growing engineering fields, but it is not exactly such a competitive field that engineers from either school would not graduate with at least one job offer and probably multiple - and similar ones at that.</p>
<p>I donât think Princeton and Duke share much in common except architecture, but youâre pretty fortunate either wayâŠI suspect 99% of the posters on here would love to be in your position. ;)</p>
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<p>Unless you have the applications of all Princeton students and all Robertson students (or âvast majoritiesâ thereof), you are in no position to make this claim.</p>
<p>And the adults I know have no idea what Robertson is. These are execs at companies that are making hiring decisions on a regular basis. They know Duke. They know Princeton. Robertson is a title that has never, ever come up in any conversation I have had about Duke with adults.</p>
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<p>That is a total lie. It is because an employer does not know what a Robertson scholar is that he will be more easily swayed by general and perhaps unfounded perceptions of universities, thus he will very clearly prefer Princetonâs significant prestige over Dukeâs.</p>
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<p>Yes, and wasnât one of the main decision criteria full ride vs. near-full pay? In the case of the original post, Pâton is offering big bucks as well. And, of course, all three were US families, getting back to my earlier point: prestige is much more of a factor in the international arena than it is in the former colonies.</p>
<p>If I were talking to a random liberal arts student, and he strongly preferred Duke to Princeton for personal reasons (no scholarship involved), Iâd tell him to go to Duke. I donât think you even need to be a Robertson to choose Duke over Princeton if thatâs how you feel.</p>
<p>But in mechanical engineering? The quality of an engineering program really matters, and itâs a lot more quantifiable than the quality of an English program. Iâd tell the future engineer to go to Princeton.</p>
<p>MEAN LSAT SCORES</p>
<p>Brown 163
Columbia 163
Dartmouth 163
Duke 163
MIT 163
University of Pennsylvania 163
Amherst 164
Stanford 164
Williams 164
Pomona College 165
Princeton 165
Swarthmore 165
Yale 165
Harvard 166</p>
<p>Source: LSDAS (2008)</p>
<p>As you all can see, the average student at Princeton would have little to no shot at a T14 law school based on his/her LSAT score. This is true at places like Yale and Harvard and although they are incredible schools, one must still be in the top half of the student body at these places to stand a good chance at T14 law schools.</p>
<p>
Most adults havenât heard of it because the Robertson Scholarship program is very small and new, much like many other scholarship programs. All a Robertson would have to do is explain to an interviewer what the scholarship signifies by pointing out all the incredible things he/she has accomplished on the resume and discuss its selectivity and a prospective interviewer would be made instantly aware of how special the program is.</p>
<p>
Who makes you an expert on this matter? You have clearly no idea how the real world works. People donât just award you jobs based on what schools you go to. Going to a target school, which both Duke and Princeton are, will merely get you to the interview stage and then you have to prove your worth to the employer in the interview.</p>
<p>No school is significantly more prestigious than Duke or any other top school for that matter. You must be off your rocker to think that. Internationally, Princeton would not even make the list of top 5 most prestigious US universities IMO.</p>
<p>âlittle to no shot at a T14 law school based on his/her LSAT score.â</p>
<p>If itâs true that the average LSAT score at Princeton has gone down to 165, that still makes them a solid T14 candidate. Little to no shot at HLS, thatâs true, but Georgetown, Duke, and Cornell? A good solid shot.</p>
<p>As others have pointed out, the Robertsonâs yield is actually higher than Princetonâs. Many top recruiters and graduate admissions officials have heard of programs like the Robertson and Morehead-Cain. Even if they havenât, the credentials you have to have to win the scholarship + the experiences you have in college because of the scholarship help make you stand out from the pool regardless.</p>
<p>I know that these opportunities are available at Princeton, but not every Princeton grad will have had 3 summers of funded research/travel, have traveled to academic conferences, and have had close ties to faculty and administrators. But every single Robertson has had those things.</p>
<p>At some point, though, itâs silly to compare ability to âopen doorsâ (even though I think the Robertson is better in this area), because if OP is qualified enough to get into Princeton and win the Robertson, then the OP is probably smart and driven enough to have those same doors open for him/her, regardless of the school attended.</p>
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<p>A Princeton student doesnât need to do that at all. They just point to Princeton â I have already encountered this as a freshman at the school. The cachet is simply there for Princeton in a way that it is not for my friends who are at Duke. This is my anecdotal experience. This is corroborated by the headmaster of my high school as well, and the many friends I have who are interning at IBanks, consulting firms, and funds, etc.</p>
<p>You are speculating at this point, and it will not stand unless you can justify it on an empirical level. It is obvious that you cannot. I suggest you drop the issue, because itâs clear that you are just making judgment calls here.</p>
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<p>Did I say as much? Of course it does not give you jobs. I didnât say that it did. So let me just dismantle your pathetic strawman myself before you burn it to the ground. It is clear that in professions like IBanking, name matters.</p>
<p>If you accept the premise that Princeton prestige to the common man surpasses Duke by even a little bit, then employers who are in general unaware of the particulars of different programs/colleges will rely more heavily on the limited information they do have. My point is this logical consequence.</p>
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<p>The first statement is a lie. The second one is probably true. Duke also does not make the list.</p>
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<p>I was worried someone would bring this up â given that Robertson is full scholarship, itâs obviously incomparable to the acceptances at HYPS. In fact, Iâm surprised at how low the yield is given the fact that most Robertson candidates probably donât have full rides to the other schools.</p>
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<p>So? The potential Robertson Scholars who are at Princeton will. Ultimately, you are able to form your social group around people similar to you. So from the perspective of the OP, what you are saying is irrelevant because you are (unintentionally, Iâm sure) equating the opportunities at the two schools.</p>
<p>Sheesh. For the OP, it seems to me that the decision really comes down to whether Dukeâs ME program is good enough. I think a lot of the people posting here donât really have a good sense of how good (as well as selective and prestigious) Duke is. Certainly, Duke has always had a very strong reputation in the South, but now it has a national rep as a top 10 school. Itâs not as prestigious as Princeton, but itâs pretty darn close. It donât think itâs nuts for anybody to choose Duke (or Brown, or Columbia, or Dartmouth) over Princeton. And the Robertson scholarship is a big dealâit sets you apart at Duke from day one in a way that simply wouldnât be the case at Princeton.
But again, if Princetonâs ME program is a lot better than Dukeâs, that might make the difference.
By the way, I donât think some of the folks arguing for Princeton on this thread are very good salespeople for Princeton at all:
This kind of statement doesnât make Princetonians look very good.</p>
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<p>I was thinking the same thing.</p>
<p>In terms of prestige, itâs more complicated to say âRobertson Scholar at Duke Universityâ (when most people donât know what that isâall kinds of schools have all kinds of scholarships and whoâs to know if thatâs a full scholarship or $500 given by the Kiwanis club) than it is to say âPrinceton.â Besides, it sounds ridiculous to say what kind of scholar you are in any conversation that you would have out loud. So if itâs prestige youâre looking for, Princeton is the winner. In terms of atmosphere, I would also say Princeton is the winner. It is unbelievably beautiful there, and in an extremely charming, classic college town.</p>
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<p>No kidding. It does not, however, invalidate any factual bases in his posts (only the subjective ones. :p)</p>
<p>The Job Interview</p>
<p>the Princeton Interview</p>
<p>Interviewer: I see that you have accomplished a lot in Mech. Eng. at Princeton, inlcuding the great research with some of the worldâs top Engineering Professors.</p>
<p>Top Princeton Student: Yes, sir, I sure have.</p>
<p>====================='</p>
<p>The Duke Interview</p>
<p>Interviewer: Oh, I see that you are a Robinson Duke Scholar.</p>
<p>Robinson Duke Scholar: Yes I am.</p>
<p>Interviewer: What is that?</p>
<p>Robinson Duke Scholar: It is a special program at Duke that I am involved in.</p>
<p>Interviewer: And what did you have to do to get into this program?</p>
<p>Robinson Duke Scholar: Oh, I had to have accomplished a lot in high school.</p>
<p>Interviewer: In high school?..you mean 4 years ago?..and what have you accomplished at Duke?</p>
<p>Robinson Duke Scholar: I am a Robinson Duke scholar.</p>
<p>Interviewer: Ok, but that was due to high school accomplishments, was it not?</p>
<p>Robinson Duke Scholar: I am a Robinson Duke scholar.</p>
<p>Interviewer: Oh, OkâŠwhere is that top Princeton student, I want to ask him a little more about his senior year thesis research that was published and in which one of the top Engineering Professors in the world was his advisor. I also want to ask him about the Goldwater Scholarship that he received for his accomplishments at Princeton, not at a high school four years agoâŠI am also interested about his experience in Physics classes and Math classes at Princeton which were required for him to take for the Mech Eng. degree, for they are regarded as the top 2 or 3 in the world and some of the top minds in the world teach those classesâŠ</p>