Duke vs. Berkeley?

College Search & Selection
281

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^^^ yep, and Berkeley didn't so much slip in the rankings as the rankings got more legit. At first they were really silly.

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<p>Oh, really? Were the rankings that silly when US News first came out? I believe the very first issue that came out placed Stanford at #1. That's pretty silly isn't it? Stanford doesn't even deserve to be in the top 10, right?</p>

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Anyway, the system used for at least the last 15 yrs separates grad & undergrad rankings, as it should, so Berkeley no longer benefits in the undergrad rankings from a graduate-research halo effect. Harvard still does though <ducking>

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<p>Wait, so first you said that US News separates grad and undergrad, so Berkeley doesn't receive benefits from its grad program, then you say Harvard receives benefits from its grad program. So which is it? Do schools ranked by US News receive benefits from its grad programs or not?</p>

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agreed w/ above, the only school which has really jumped significantly is upenn all the other ones are extremely constant...i can bet you i can predict which schools will be in the top 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 on the issue coming out this august =D

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<p>Is that so? What about Northwestern, which jumped from #23 to #14 in one year? Or WUSTL, which jumped from #24 to #9 in the span of a decade? </p>

<p>The most convincing one is CalTech, which jumped from #4 to #1 in 2000, and then down to #9 the year after? Did it really drop 9 places in one year? Come on. That was the year US News actually tried to tweak the formula and make it more legit. After all the controversy US News got that year, it once again messed with the formula to ensure that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton would stay on top. It's the whole idea behind US News in the first place. Print out a ranking that shows Harvard, Yale, and Princeton on top and most people won't question its validity. After all, if you look at the rankings, in the past 15 years Yale dropped out of top 3 ONCE. Princeton dropped out of top TWO only three times, and Harvard dropped out of TOP TWO ONLY ONCE. </p>

<p>If you want to read more on the subject, just go here: <a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2000/0009.thompson.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2000/0009.thompson.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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It was in one of the very first issues, when they weren't remotely scientific about it... just a 'reputation' poll of college presidents. I still have the issue somewhere. I don't even think it distinguished btw grad & undergrad. It was just yo, prez, what do you think is a good school? And they ran with that. And look where it's gone!

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<p>I would like to see a link to this too. The farthest data back on US News I could find is 1991.</p>

283

<p>"Is that so? What about Northwestern, which jumped from #23 to #14 in one year? Or WUSTL, which jumped from #24 to #9 in the span of a decade?"-curt from vicissitudes
vicissitudes...you are talking about abnormal rankings and twisted data while i'm looking at the general picture...northwestern's and jhu's rank of 20 something are abnormalities, they were never again ranked so low...and wustl and uchic are the two schools who notoriously manipulated data to achieve higher ranking...so yes...i can state w/ confidence that ucb is going to be a top 25 school again which isn;t too bad...
-i'm so tired of these debates, apparently i am trying to convince people who are hardcore ucb fans, applicants, and admits...
edit: stanford was always top 10, i didn;t even bother to check but it definetly has been in the recent years and yes stanford doesn;t deserve to be #1, stop w/ the nonsense-caltech owns stanford by a whole number lol
edit: again you cannot classify schools by a specific ranking number; however, you can classify schools as top 10, 15,20,25,30, etc. etc...and they tend to remain stable throughout the years of us ranking...</p>

284

<p>Only 19 pages so far? Hmm, this has the potential to be a CC first - a Berkley vs. ______ thread that didn't lead to 20+ pages of fighting. :)</p>

285

<p>there are too many berkley applicants and acceptees and undergrad bodies...the private schools don;t even have as much as a student body even close to berkley's number...which means in argument...if only student bodies argue then berkley should win them all...however, it just happens that barely any duke people are even bothering to argue for themselves in this, while objective people are argueing in favor of duke while berkley's applicants/acceptees are just trying to keep their school's overinflated peer ranking score through emotional appeal.
anyhow...berkley is only known for one thing...i'm sooo bitter right now and tired of wasting my time arguing about pointless things...so yea...plz forgive me...
berkley's fishing is worldclass...which is why Berkeley must be ranked as #1
<a href="http://www.berkley-fishing.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.berkley-fishing.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Your argument would make a whole lot more sense if it were about Berkeley, and not "Berkley."</p>

<p>darkhope, if you knew anything about grad school, you'd know just how first-rate Berkeley really is. We're talking Harvard, Stanford rate.</p>

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<p>...uclari...i'm so sorry but it was so tempting to follow the poster's comment above me by using berkley and poking fun at ucb and finally calling it berkeley at the end. Sorry, but according to med, law, buisness school placements to top w/e, ucb doesn;t fair too well but anyhow that's ok...and my last comment regarding my apology was due to my directly attacking the school name...
edit: i should be more obvious =(..i'm just bitter and tired right now from posting the same things over and over again. i was calling it berkley because so many people don;t even know how to spell the name right which just shows how people, not applicants, feel about the school =D...anyhow...i made a fallacy when stating that because berkley's fishing thing is famous, ucb must be good...it was an insult at ucb by stating that ucb doesn;t even deserve to be compared w/ berkley's fishing thing</p>

288

<p>Berkeley fares very well in placement. Much better than easily 99% of the schools in the nation.</p>

<p>However, it doesn't fare well compared to its peer institutions in the top 25. That's the difference. It's the CC.com myopia that sets in that allows people to honestly believe that being ranked around 20 or so is poor performance.</p>

<p>Berkeley's graduate programs, from its law school down to its engineering, are all first rate and easily comparable to any top program in the nation. Its only real weakness is its undergrad program (which is only considered weak relative to its incredible grad programs.)</p>

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<p>yes...i'm sorry that i criticized the whole school as a whole...i'm just soo angry at posting the same data over and over and over and over........ucb's grad school is godly =D</p>

290

<p>darkhope:</p>

<p>"there are too many berkley applicants and acceptees and undergrad bodies"</p>

<p>Er, that's irrelevant in the context of CC, since many people at this site have some fascination with top 10 or 15 schools. </p>

<p>"the private schools don;t even have as much as a student body even close to berkley's"</p>

<p>Irrelevant too.</p>

<p>"if only student bodies argue then berkley should win them all"</p>

<p>You're not really trying to make a case from this, are you? There are schools with more students (U of Florida, Texas A&M, Ohio State, etc.).</p>

<p>"however, it just happens that barely any duke people are even bothering to argue for themselves in this, while objective people are argueing in favor of duke"</p>

<p>You're guessing.</p>

<p>"while berkley's applicants/acceptees are just trying to keep their school's overinflated peer ranking score through emotional appeal."</p>

<p>Er, do you even know what "emotional appeal" means? I haven't seen any of that in this thread. Berkeley's peer rating score is far from "overinflated" (underinflated, if you will). Further, that's an ad hominem fallacy.</p>

<p>bananainpyjamas:</p>

<p>"Only 19 pages so far? Hmm, this has the potential to be a CC first - a Berkley vs. ______ thread that didn't lead to 20+ pages of fighting."</p>

<p>Isn't it odd that Berkeley is so often compared to private schools like Harvard, Duke, and Stanford? I wonder why. =)</p>

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<p>i am not guessing...look at the posters arguing in favor of ucb and the posters arguing in favor of duke look at their profile and previous posts...
and sigh...the only reason i'm posting here is trying to get people to see how ridiculous it is to compare ucb w/ any of those privates...kyle...reason that so many people post about ucb vs other schools is because ucb has most applicants and most acceptees...</p>

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<p>but ucb's graduate programs are definetly comparable to that of harvard, duke, and stanford =D</p>

293

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In the time it took you to reply, you could've simply googled it ...</p>

<p>In any case, from this:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/...d.php?t=280581%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/...d.php?t=280581&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It seems that in '91, Berkeley's rank was 13, and has slowly been going down in ranking (jumping a few times). By that, though, you could guess that it was at least in the top 10 before '91 (but that's pure guessing).

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<p>Uh, I did Google it and found nothing to the effect that Berkeley was in the top 5 in the 1980's (which is what was claimed). That is why I am asking anybody here (especially the person who made the claim) to present the data so that I can see it for myself. Your Google search only heightens my curiosity because it still doesn't show what was claimed. </p>

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The very first US News rankings, published as "Rating the Colleges" on November 28, 1983 by Lucia Solorzano and Barbara E. Quick, consisted of a survey of college presidents. The current factors used to "calculate" ranks did not evolve until 1989.

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<p>Ok, so then I ask again, specifically what year in the 1980's was it that Berkeley was supposedly in the top 5? Remember, I didn't make the claim. I am simply trying to authenticate it.</p>

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<p>darkhope:</p>

<p>"the only reason i'm posting here is trying to get people to see how ridiculous it is to compare ucb w/ any of those privates"</p>

<p>Obviously people don't think it's too ridiculous, and many of them are more learned in this area than you seem to be.</p>

<p>"reason that so many people post about ucb vs other schools is because ucb has most applicants and most acceptees..."</p>

<p>You're guessing, again. You do not know why they do that. UCB does not have the most applicants or the most "acceptees." Check your facts before asserting.</p>

<p>Perhaps many find that UCB is on par with private schools. =)</p>

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<p>sakky, I think the poster was referring to the very first US News rankings, published as "Rating the Colleges" on November 28, 1983 by Lucia Solorzano and Barbara E. Quick. The ranking was based entirely on peer assessment by college presidents. </p>

<p>I found a copy in Duke's microfilm collection; I don't know if it can accessed online. The top 15 schools were:</p>

<p>1 Stanford
2 Harvard
3 Yale
4 Princeton
5 UC Berkeley
6 Chicago
7 Michigan
8 Cornell
8 Illinois
10 Dartmouth
10 MIT
12 Caltech
13 Carnegie Mellon
13 Wisconsin-Madison
15 Brown
15 Columbia
15 Indiana
15 UNC Chapel Hill
15 Rice </p>

<p>It seems a very odd arrangement to me, but then again, I wasn't even born yet. :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>Yeah, cause everyone knows Illinois totally smokes MIT. ;)</p>

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Isn't it odd that Berkeley is so often compared to private schools like Harvard, Duke, and Stanford? I wonder why. =)

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<p>I know why, but you wouldn't like it. :p</p>

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vicissitudes...you are talking about abnormal rankings and twisted data while i'm looking at the general picture...northwestern's and jhu's rank of 20 something are abnormalities, they were never again ranked so low...and wustl and uchic are the two schools who notoriously manipulated data to achieve higher ranking...so yes...i can state w/ confidence that ucb is going to be a top 25 school again which isn;t too bad...

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<p>That's not what you originally said. You originally said other than U Penn the other schools remained "extremely consistant." I just strongly disagreed with that statement, that's all.</p>

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[quote]
-i'm so tired of these debates, apparently i am trying to convince people who are hardcore ucb fans, applicants, and admits...

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<p>I don't know to whom you're talking here...I don't think I'm known around the boards as a "hardcore UCB fan." If you look at my post history you'll see I have quite a number of complaints against UC Berkeley. I'm just pointing out things other people post that I don't agree with.</p>

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however, it just happens that barely any duke people are even bothering to argue for themselves in this, while objective people are argueing in favor of duke

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<p>I don't know, warbersrule posted quite a bit in the thread and I believe he attends Duke.</p>

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I found a copy in Duke's microfilm collection; I don't know if it can accessed online. The top 15 schools were:</p>

<p>1 Stanford
2 Harvard
3 Yale
4 Princeton
5 UC Berkeley
6 Chicago
7 Michigan
8 Cornell
8 Illinois
10 Dartmouth
10 MIT
12 Caltech
13 Carnegie Mellon
13 Wisconsin-Madison
15 Brown
15 Columbia
15 Indiana
15 UNC Chapel Hill
15 Rice

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<p>Thanks, that's interesting to see. Personally I don't think Berkeley should be ranked that high, but interestingly enough if you'll rank the schools only by the Peer Assessment portion I bet it would look similar to that.</p>

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<p>ok i'm going to try to not erupt =D
"Obviously people don't think it's too ridiculous, and many of them are more learned in this area than you seem to be."
-wow i do hope those people are not like you...but obviously even the op admitted that he knew duke was the right choice...
"reason that so many people post about ucb vs other schools is because ucb has most applicants and most acceptees..."
-i think we are talking about the top 25 schools...if you want to include all the way down to top 100 then my comment no longer applies...
"Perhaps many find that UCB is on par with private schools."
-oMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG...ok seriously...those who find ucb at par are those ignorant california residents, unless we are talking about majoring in chem, etc a impacted major which is a different story =D...
kyle, a most probable future ucb student, please remain objective when commenting on threads that may ridiculously impact future yield rate...based on undergrad rankings as an overall duke has efficiently shown that it is better than ucb...I do agree that duke's spot in the top 10 is a bit overrated but it's still good =D duke owns =D</p>

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<p>Now viss =D
"That's not what you originally said. You originally said other than U Penn the other schools remained "extremely consistant." I just strongly disagreed with that statement, that's all."
-I'm sorry but what i meant was that Upenn's overall rank was not extremely constant; however, all the other top 15 schools overall rank are.
-"I don't know to whom you're talking here...I don't think I'm known around the boards as a "hardcore UCB fan." If you look at my post history you'll see I have quite a number of complaints against UC Berkeley. I'm just pointing out things other people post that I don't agree with."
-I'm sorry...i was a bit tired but atleast you are not arguing as far as kyle is...
-warberrules, i think he was clearly not even favoring his own school based on his comments<br>
-If you rank only by peer assessment, this is how us news ranks it...although there are some heavy flaws because peer assessment includes not only the most prestigious grad schools etc. Also publics tend to have many people around the area to believe it is the best...hence everyone in california will believe ucb as top 1...and people in michig. will know umich as top 1...
1. Princeton University (NJ)<br>
4.9
2. Harvard University (MA)<br>
4.9
3. Yale University (CT)<br>
4.9
4. Stanford University (CA)<br>
4.9
4. Massachusetts Inst. of Technology<br>
4.9
4. California Institute of Technology<br>
4.7
9. University of Chicago<br>
4.7
21. University of California—Berkeley *
4.7
9. Columbia University (NY)<br>
4.6
12. Cornell University (NY)<br>
4.6
16. Johns Hopkins University (MD)<br>
4.6
7. University of Pennsylvania<br>
4.5
8. Duke University (NC)<br>
4.5
24. University of Michigan—Ann Arbor *
4.5
9. Dartmouth College (NH)<br>
4.4<br>
14. Northwestern University (IL)<br>
4.4
15. Brown University (RI)<br>
4.4 </p>

<p>-wow i wish someone will just either delete this thread or lock it...i think many of us are wasting sooo much time posting here...=D</p>

300

<p>bye...what a waste of time gl! to whoever continues to deliberate this...</p>