<p>Look, the parchment rankings use a very simple methodology to determine students preferences. You may or may not agree with them, but the fact remains that they are probably the most reliable indicator that we have access to. Using exclamation points in your comments will not strengthen your arguments, you clearly have it in for Duke, and will go to any lengths to prove that it is as cliquey and overrated as you make it out to be. I for one strongly urge you to vent your frustrations somewhere else.</p>
<p>Yes, there are reputations out there for schools. Some schools are known as party schools, some schools have a reputation for preppy-ness, others have lots of nerds, UChicago has a reputation of unhappy students, etc. But to what degree is that true and just how big is that fire? Is it merely embers or a conflagration? </p>
<p>To categorically state that a school is clique-y based on the “where there is smoke there is fire” method of looking at online forums is doing everyone here a disservice. Again, a tiny number of students every year voiced a particular concern…it must be true…</p>
<p>As to the cross-admits issue…what exactly is the sample size here? Throw around percentages that mean squat when n is unknown doesn’t really back up anyone’s point here. If 20 people were Princeton/Duke cross admits and 6 came to Duke, that’s almost 30%. But is it significant? Doubtful…</p>
<p>
Yes there has, Duke has gotten a lot more prestigious since 2004-05 when that data was complied by NYT, which utilized a flawed methodology by the way since they only interviewed a select group of Northeast high schoolers about their college preferences.</p>
<p>If we were comparing crossadmits with peer schools yet. But Duke is not a peer school with HYPSM and there has not been a material change in the relationship with them. It is a step down.This is not to put down Duke, just how non-Duke affiliated people see the school. H’s yield was 77%, Stanford 71% vs 44% for Duke.</p>
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<p>That actually didn’t make much sense. I’m not saying that Duke necessarily increased in “prestige” (because prestige is such a BS term) but hypothetically speaking, if cross-admit percentages in Duke’s favor were to increase it would only require that the difference between Duke’s prestige and HYPSM’s prestige changes in Duke’s favor (ie. narrows). Nowhere is there a requirement that Duke must be a peer school otherwise what’s the point comparing of cross-admits anyway?</p>
<p>Look at the Harvard threads for how many students H is their dreams school to the level of hysteria. How many students would be willing to take a forced gap year to attend Duke, instead of just going to another school? Harvard does it year after year and it is amazing that people accept it without any hesitation. As if it is an invisible line, other schools may narrow the prestige gap but there is always a certain aura surrounding the HYPSM.</p>
<p>^Sure that may be true. But for the lucky applicants who are in the position to choose, many will try to make informed decisions. If Duke improves in “prestige” then the chances of someone attending will increase. Besides HYPSM is not best at everything. If you are interested in bioengineering and are choosing between Duke and Princeton then it’s a no brainer you’d choose Duke for that. Hell Duke BME probably rivals anything HYPSM can throw at it. I would hope that students smart enough to get into HYPSM and Duke would know to get beyond that “aura” and actually think for themselves about which school is best for them.</p>
<p>
Well, it’s more than that. The NYT chart was never terribly accurate to begin with, and the study indicates why. Why read a 50 page study when you can look at a picture, though?</p>
<p>The Revealed Preferences study did not predict the results of one-on-one match-ups. Rather, it attempted to rank colleges based on desirability. Likewise, the RP study is not cross-admit data, though it does use it.</p>
<p>What the RP study attempts to provide is the comparative desirability of colleges based on the probable outcomes of hypothetical cross-admit battles as simulated by a model, the parameters of which are set by student info and in which factors like geography, legacy status, and financial aid have been equalized. The study freely admits that many colleges without significant overlapping applicant pools have been compared via intermediate colleges, and self-selecting colleges like BYU demonstrate a decidedly skewed result in the overall ranking. Essentially, the RP study is at best loosely correlated with actual cross-admit results. For example, in pitting Berkeley against Princeton in the study, a hypothetical student would be transformed into both (or neither) a resident of California and (nor) New Jersey, and financial aid/cost would be equal – obviously this is not actually the case. </p>
<p>The study cannot be trusted for reliable information about cross-admits. For example, the study indicates an 88% confidence that Yale wins against Stanford, and yet it has lost the majority of its cross-admits to Stanford since at least 2000. Even more egregious, it has Caltech beating out MIT, and yet we know that MIT collects more than 3 Caltech cross-admits for every 1 it loses to Caltech. You’ll notice that Caltech is conspicuously absent from the NYT chart, as it is a clear anomaly that would’ve tipped readers off that something was not quite right. </p>
<p>The RP study, unlike the NYT, did not attempt to pit colleges against one another directly (i.e. predict the outcomes of battles), and in fact the study outlined a number of problems about using its preference study as a substitute/source for/of actual cross-admit results:
[ul][<em>]Students ranked their preferences before they were admitted to college; the preference ranking fails to factor in how results affect the rankings of students.
[</em>]Students investigate colleges more extensively during senior year, and their preferences may change.
[li]Cross-admit results are based on actual matriculation results rather than students’ wishes.[/ul]</p>[/li]
<p>There is no doubt that Duke loses the majority of applicants also admitted to Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Princeton, and/or MIT. Exactly what that percentage is, however, is unknown. Of course, that will not stop me from speculating. I will use Stanford, since it’s the school with the most data available. We know two useful things about Stanford.</p>
<p>(1) 14% of Stanford admits were also admitted at Duke.</p>
<p>[Stanford</a> hopes to close financial-aid deficit in four to five years, Hennessy tells Stanford faculty | Stanford Daily](<a href=“http://www.stanforddaily.com/2010/10/08/financial-aid-deficit-may-persist-four-to-five-years-hennessy-tells-stanford-faculty/]Stanford”>Stanford hopes to close financial-aid deficit in four to five years, Hennessy tells Stanford faculty)</p>
<p>(2) 1% of Stanford’s lost admits matriculated at Duke.</p>
<p>[Faculty</a> Senate minutes - June 12, 2008 meeting](<a href=“http://news.stanford.edu/news/2008/june18/minutes-061808.html]Faculty”>You’ve requested a page that no longer exists | Stanford News)</p>
<p>Stanford admits: 2439
Duke-Stanford cross-admits: 341
Stanford losses: 717
Stanford losses to Duke: 7</p>
<p>Duke wins 2% of Duke-Stanford cross-admits.</p>
<p>For comparison purposes, here is how HYPM compare:
[ul][<em>]Harvard wins 55% (229) of 415 Harvard-Stanford cross-admits.
[</em>]Yale wins 31% (115) of 366 Yale-Stanford cross-admits.
[<em>]MIT wins 29% (93) of 317 MIT-Stanford cross-admits.
[</em>]Princeton wins 23% (100) of 439 Princeton-Stanford cross-admits.[/ul]
Unfortunately, that is where things get tricky. Although Duke wins only 2% of students also admitted at Stanford, that is with other colleges also in the mix. Most students do not apply to only two colleges, particularly such selective ones, and these percentages will shift if you take out colleges - for example, Yale’s success against Stanford may well rise if you take Harvard out of the mix, since the students looking to stay on the east coast may instead flock to Yale. </p>
<p>The only thing that we can really glean from this is (1) Stanford is increasingly gaining equal footing with Harvard and (2) YPM lose most of their cross-admits to Stanford, although many fewer than any other top universities. Based on the relative success of each against Stanford, I would guess the outcome of a one-on-one battle involving Duke would lead to a curb-stomping victory by HYPSM (90-95% won, 85% at the very least) and a relatively equal (40-60%) win rate for Duke against the “lower Ivies.”</p>
<p>Of course, what this has to do with Duke vs. Rice, I’m not quite sure. Rice fares no better than Duke against HYPSM, and it probably fares more poorly than Duke against the “lower Ivies.”</p>
<p>^“Based on the relative success of each against Stanford, I would guess the outcome of a one-on-one battle involving Duke would lead to a curb-stomping victory by HYPSM (90-95% won”
That was my point. Parchment has 30% choose Duke over Stanford that’s why I completely ignore the site comparisons.</p>
<p>Ana1: Please note–Duke supporters are blind in their endorsement of their school–no data is sufficient to dissuade them. As a former Duke student, I saw and experienced the negatives of the place, including its overwhelming “issue” as a back-up school. I believe this fact–that it is not Ivy-league caliber and the institution and students are DESPERATELY wanting it to be–is why the Duke supporters cannot tolerate any dissenting voices. It is quite sad, acutally, that they need to eventually go to name calling when people point out the facts of Duke’s flaws. Overall, Duke is a great school–and I chose to attend there–it was my mistake to attend, not Duke’s. But you would hope that Duke could get out of its “Gothic Wonderland” delusion and look at facts–if it did, maybe it could actually be what it demands you to think it is–a peer of HYPSM.</p>
<p>
It’s ignorant posters like you who undersell Duke that prompt us to defend our alma mater with such a fierce passion.</p>
<p>Selectivity
[Colleges</a> Report 2012 Admissions Statistics - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/16/college-admits-2012/]Colleges”>Colleges Report 2012 Admissions Statistics - The New York Times)
Duke: 11.87% acceptance rate (2012)</p>
<p>Higher Than
Cornell
Penn</p>
<p>National Merit Scholar Enrollment
<a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf</a>
Duke: 93</p>
<p>Higher Than
Brown
Cornell
Columbia
Dartmouth</p>
<p>Endowment Size Absolute/Per Capita
<a href=“http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/research/2011NCSEPublicTablesEndowmentMarketValues319.pdf[/url]”>Page not Found;
Duke: $5.75 Billion</p>
<p>Higher Than
Brown (Absolute and Per Capita)
Cornell (Absolute and Per Capita)
Columbia (Per Capita)
Dartmouth (Absolute)
Penn (Per Capita)</p>
<p>Faculty Strength According to NRC
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/1006939-princeton-2010-national-research-council-nrc-rankings-news-item.html?highlight=national+research+council[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/1006939-princeton-2010-national-research-council-nrc-rankings-news-item.html?highlight=national+research+council</a>
Duke: 38.9</p>
<p>Higher Than
Brown
Cornell
Penn
Dartmouth</p>
<p>Faculty Strength According to USNWR Graduate Edition
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/1241939-university-michigans-academic-power-rating.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/1241939-university-michigans-academic-power-rating.html</a>
Duke: 78.10</p>
<p>Higher Than
Brown
Dartmouth</p>
<p>Professional Placement
[Wall</a> Street Journal College Rankings: The Full List and Rating Criteria](<a href=“http://anayambaker.hubpages.com/hub/Wall-Street-Journal-College-Rankings-The-Full-List-and-Rating-Criteria]Wall”>http://anayambaker.hubpages.com/hub/Wall-Street-Journal-College-Rankings-The-Full-List-and-Rating-Criteria)
Duke: #6</p>
<p>Higher Than
Brown
Columbia
Cornell
Dartmouth
Penn</p>
<p>PhD Placement in Science & Engineering
<a href=“http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/nsf08311.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/nsf08311.pdf</a>
Duke: #30</p>
<p>Higher Than
Columbia
Dartmouth
Penn</p>
<p>Fellowship Placement From 1986-2011
<a href=“http://www.ksu.ksu.edu/media/achievements/scholarstop10of5.pdf[/url]”>http://www.ksu.ksu.edu/media/achievements/scholarstop10of5.pdf</a>
Duke: #5</p>
<p>Higher Than
Brown
Columbia
Cornell
Dartmouth
Penn</p>
<p>I’m sorry that Duke wasn’t a good fit for you but please find another forum to ■■■■■. Duke is every bit as good as the Lower Ivies.</p>
<p>^I agree wholeheartedly–Duke is as good as the LOWER Ivies–but, as I said, it is not HPYSM, and it kills people from Duke that it is not. Just be Duke, and stop trying to convince others that it is “as good” as HPYSM–it’s not. And Duke is not in a location that enhances academic, cultural, and social life. And Duke does have a strong Greek system that segregates the student body. And Duke is in NC. And Duke has a great basketball tradition (despite playing the most pathetic game of basketball in the NCAA tournament in recent memory). And Duke has a beautiful campus. And Duke has a great medical center. And Duke has a race-relations problem and longstanding town-gown problem. And that problem is improving. And Duke is preprofessional more than intellectual. These are facts, along with the fact that Duke cannot compete with HPYSM in terms of academic quality and prestige. Yes, Duke does compete with the lower-Ivies. I never disagreed with that. </p>
<p>Yes, I would rather be at Duke than Dartmouth (my class at Duke was, ironically, full of Dartmouth-rejects and wannabes). Yes, I was much happier at Georgetown than at Duke. Yes, my roommate at Duke didn’t get in to Georgetown. All facts. Sorry if they upset you. Deal with it, and don’t be so insecure about your great university.</p>
<p>I thought we were talking about the merits of Duke vs. Rice…can we please get back to topic? Rehashing the same old un-scientific BS (by either side) that is mostly unsupported by data is starting to get old. Duke is Duke, along with all its strengths and weaknesses. Let’s not pretend it’s anything else but not underestimate its advantages either.</p>
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<p>Uh, yes you did. See above. “Duke is not Ivy-league caliber.” Unless you also think the “lower ivies” are not Ivy-league caliber. Nobody here has said Duke is equivalent to HYPSM. Duke is a great school, but has it’s faults just like any other school.</p>
<p>In any event, back to Rice v. Duke…</p>
<p>^You are right–I did say that Duke is not Ivy-league caliber, and then clarified at the end that it is not a peer of HYPSM. I do believe Duke is in the league of Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell–the so called “lower-Ivies.” I am pleased we all agree that Duke is not comparable to HYPSM. Finally. Agreement. Now back to Rice vs. Duke…</p>
<p>
Interesting. </p>
<p>Aren’t you the same person who posted the following just today? Despite my link above showing that number of students who chose Georgetown over Stanford, if any, is at most three each year?
</p>
<p>And then proceeded to enumerate all of the wonderful things that Georgetown provides that Harvard and Yale don’t?
</p>
<p>…just checking.</p>
<p>“As a man is, so he sees.”</p>
<p>~ William Blake</p>
<p>I got into both Rice and Duke and chose Rice. Honestly, the schools are very different and yet the same as well. Honestly, I would agree with past posters, who stated that if you switch majors, your focus for post-grad JOBS would largely depend on where you went to school. Duke does have a more national reputation than Rice, due to its larger size and more geographically diverse student body (read: more Northeasterners). If you end up doing pre-med, then it’s a wash, although Texas medical schools are cheaper, like a previous poster said. If you change majors, then it really depends on what you are switching to: Duke is stronger in the humanities and social sciences, while Rice has an edge in engineering and some of the natural sciences. I will say this: do not come to Rice if you would never think of working in Houston post-grad. Because we’re in the fourth largest city in the U.S., with a myriad of booming industries/overall better job market than the res of the U.S., a lot of companies will be interviewing for Houston positions. Not to say you wouldn’t be able to get a job elsewhere; I know people working in Alaska, California, Wisconsin, New York City, San Francisco, you get the point; it’s just that I venture to guess that Rice young alumni are more concentrated in a particular location(s) (Houston/Dallas) than Duke young alumni are. The cost difference really isn’t really significant at this point, both are expensive schools, so I would just go with where you would be happiest academically and socially.</p>
<p>^ Agree with above. My son was admitted to both Rice and Duke also. He loved both schools. He is planning a pre-med track. You can’t go wrong with either schools. Both are excellent pre-med programs with about 90% acceptance rate to med school. Both have excellent medical centers on campus. Remember, it’s all about the pre-med student and the opportunites (academic and non-academic) that he/she takes advantage of at the undergraduate level.</p>
<p>^Interesting, my old neighbor’s son was also admitted to both schools and chose Rice as well. He is from the northeast, interested in Political science and decided that with the $25million donation for the new social science building, the school will put a lot of money to pump social sciences as it moves aggressively to become a more geographically diverse university and will also give him a different edge for graduate school since there are so many schools that are concentrated in the northeast. Keep in mind that Rice has more space to go up in the rankings and it is a very wealthy school that only recently started to market itself in such a degree, similar to what UChicago has been doing. </p>
<p>BTW, OP except from the hospitals across the street from Rice, there is also the Bioscience Research Collaborative, again, across the street, where researchers from Rice and the hospitals do research together. [About</a> the BRC : BioScience Research Collaborative](<a href=“http://brc.rice.edu/about.shtml]About”>http://brc.rice.edu/about.shtml)</p>