<p>I dont qualify for need based aid ANYWHERE so I would still love to go to duke :/</p>
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yeah that’s really weird. 30% is so extraordinarily low. a lot of lower-ranked schools have double that yield- gtown for example</p>
<p>Rice is also much much smaller than many of not all of the schools you mentioned Slik Nik and here is why that impacts FA and merit scholarships:</p>
<p>1) 3.6B endowment (wikipedia) goes much further with 3200 undergrads and 2300 graduate students than 4.44B does at Duke with close to 13500 students. </p>
<p>2) With a larger student body, the overhead and operating costs of the university dramatically increases. For many private schools, a significant chunk of that comes from the endowment, just look at Harvard’s numbers, I believe it’s somewhere in the neighborhood of 30%.</p>
<p>3) Large student body means that there is less money to go around for FA, although Duke’s FA is very favorable to those that truly need it. </p>
<p>Regarding merit scholarships:</p>
<p>1) How much money is very much dependent on the amount people donate. </p>
<p>2) How they are disbursed can sometimes be subject to donor’s stipulations or institutional choice. In Duke’s case, many scholarships have restrictions based on residency or race. Duke also chooses to give only full rides which makes giving it to a large portion of the student body impractical and probably unlawful in NC (the principal of an endowment cannot be paid out to sustain its activities in NC). </p>
<p>Finally, you are complaining because Duke didn’t give you FA (which you yourself admitted you didn’t really need) and you didn’t receive a full ride scholarship? And that somehow means Duke’s FA sucks? Actually, I think that just means the FA system at Duke was doing its job…</p>
<p>I’m not bashing your choice to go to Rice. I think anyone is entitled to and should consider colleges based on financial reasons and choose the one they think is best. But just because you didn’t think Duke was worth an extra 30K a year or something doesn’t mean Duke’s FA is awful. It just means you made a decision on what you thought was more important.</p>
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<p>Except yield (as reported) is usually calculated at the end of the year including ED numbers. That would make Duke’s yield this year in the neighborhood of ~42% which is actually pretty normal for Duke. It’s an underhanded way of doing it, but then again, schools like columbia also usually accepts a third of their class from ED.</p>
<p>Apologies for the double post, saw the last post only after I submitted.</p>
<p>^^ “Actually, I think that just means the FA system at Duke was doing its job…”</p>
<p>What might that job be? To create a student body composed of about 90% from the highest 5% of incomes in the country? IF that’s their job, they’re doing a GREAT job.</p>
<p>So then why all the angst from the administration about Duke’s lack of socioeconomic diversity? Why don’t they just come clean? They have every right to run a school for “rich kids”. They should just say so and STOP admitting people like me that they KNOW could never afford to attend. They should be need blind for the merit aid and need aware for everything else … a little honesty never hurts … … well maybe a little :)</p>
<p>No the job is to maximize the impact of the aid money and only give aid to those that really need it. In slik nik’s case, he has implied that his family is able to pay for Duke. In which case his grievance against Duke for not giving him FA money is a little misplaced considering the stated purpose of FA.</p>
<p>I have no idea what your situation is plumazul so I won’t comment on it but in slik nik’s case, the FA system was just doing its job. </p>
<p>But I would like to point out that the adcoms doesn’t “know” anything about your financial situation and chances are the FA office probably doesn’t even start crunching your numbers until after the adcoms decided to admit you and submitted their decision to the FA office.</p>
<p>Yes, I could have attended, SBR, but I knew that it would have put an economic strain on my family even though we didn’t qualify for need-based aid. My family is not rich either and would have had to taken an exorbitant loan to pay for my education. I’m not complaining about my merit scholarship either; I’m quite glad Rice gave it to me. I’m not saying Duke’s financial aid sucks because I didn’t get any aid. I know the Ivies are generally better at giving financial aid, even to middle class families like mine, than places at Duke, WashU, Emory, etc.</p>
<p>^ It’s quite hard to say something is awful if you don’t base it on your own experiences. </p>
<p>Regarding FA, my impression of Duke’s philosophy is that it tries to maximize the number of people that are able to attend Duke. Naturally this means that for some, especially those caught in the middle, it means that it’s really a strain (not that they are particularly well off or anything like that). Unfortunately Duke doesn’t have the resources to guarantee that everyone can comfortably attend. It leaves some admits in rather awkward or difficult situations but then again, everyone has to look out for their own best interests whether it be the students or Duke. I commend you for making a decision that you believe to be in your best interest. But it doesn’t mean that FA at Duke is awful it just means that Duke really wants to make its education a possibility for those that would never be able to afford it otherwise. </p>
<p>As for Ivies giving better financial aid, again, it’s all a matter of endowment size. Duke’s just doesn’t allow it to do more than give free rides to those with incomes below 50K.</p>
<p>SBR, you are right. I shouldn’t have said that Duke’s financial aid is awful based on my personal circumstances. Instead, I should have said “I wasn’t happy with it.”</p>
<p>" … it just means that Duke really wants to make its education a possibility for those that would never be able to afford it otherwise."</p>
<p>What? I think we should just let Duke’s student body statistics speak for themselves. It’s a school of RICH KIDS. Duke’s administration doesn’t deny this, … why should you?</p>
<p>Plumazul has a good point. The Duke Chronicle article has some convincing evidence that there are a lot of rich kids at Duke. Of course, Duke isn’t all rich kids and may not even be a majority of rich kids, but it has a significant proportion of rich kids.</p>
<p>uhhhh, what student body statistics are you speaking of besides the average income that the Chronicle published last year? I’m not denying that Duke students are well to do compared to the general population but we are not all sons of bill gates and warren buffett here. And frankly, for you to presume such is pretty offensive. I know my parents really had to strain to help me attend. </p>
<p>Also, nothing I said was untruthful. What other purpose would such an FA policy as Duke’s serve? It’s done its best (with its limited resources) to ensure that money will not be the thing that prevents a qualified applicant from attending if he/she couldn’t afford to do so otherwise when judged by reasonable objective standards. </p>
<p>Lastly turn off the caps lock, I resent being called a RICH KID when you don’t even know me.</p>
<p>Edit: saw slik nik’s post after I posted. </p>
<p>yeah, but the average is highly skewed. I mean Aubrey McClendon (a Duke parent) was the highest paid CEO in America a few years back with a total compensation package valued at well over $100M. That’s for one student. I bet that had an impact on the overall averages…</p>
<p>Though Duke students are generally more well off, I don’t see what reflection this has on Duke’s FA. Harvard students are probably just as well off, and Harvard’s FA is still amazing. I think it’s good that Duke gives more aid to the people who really need it, which sucks for the people who are caught in the middle, but at least Duke is making an effort to make a Duke education possible for those who really can’t pay for it.</p>
<p>^ I agree it sucks for people in the middle but it’s actually a reflection of trends in american society in general. Those below the poverty line qualify for government welfare programs such as Medicaid, food stamps, etc. The well to do can general afford healthcare, food, living expenses and more. But during a recession or downturn, or even during periods of growth, there will always be lower middle class families who work hard, make a little bit above the cutoff and thus fall through the cracks. </p>
<p>In the end, Duke just doesn’t have the resources to satisfy everyone so it must target those most in need or most vulnerable.</p>
<p>It seems to me that Duke’s low yield has more to do with its appeal (or lack thereof) outside of the South than its FA. For example, this year at my NE prep school, 13 students were admitted to Duke. Only 2 are going (one applied ED and the other chose it over Vanderbilt). Their decisions had nothing to do with personal finance, since these students would have no trouble paying full freight. This is only one anecdotal experience, but my friends at other NE prep schools report similar stories. It is much harder for Duke to take students out of the NE than for the ivies to take students out of the South. </p>
<p>A friend of mine who goes to Duke tells me that Duke splits cross-admits with the non-HYP ivies. This seems implausible to me. All of the (including non-HYP) ivies have higher yields than Duke. So if Duke were to split cross-admits with the non-HYP ivies, then this means that Duke is being more hurt in their other cross-admit battles than the non-HYP ivies. Either way is consistent with the Revealed Preference findings which place Duke 19th. But I think the former is more likely than the latter, although both could be true, of course.</p>
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<p>Plumazul, you seem to be under the impression that Duke selects ONLY rich students. This could not be farther from the truth. If you actually READ that article from The Chronicle that you keep posting everywhere, you’ll notice that it’s supposed to open conversation. What the article is noting is that it is difficult to pull students from socioeconomically challenged backgrounds for three reasons:</p>
<p>1) The more-well off the student, the more likely they are able to have the educational resources to get into a school like Duke. It’s not like richer kids got in because they are richer, but rather because they have resources to help them succeed in high school; those high school successes, in turn, makes them appealing to Duke as candidates for admission.</p>
<p>2) Kids who are more socioeconomically-disadvantaged tend not to apply to Duke in fear that they may not afford it. That’s why Duke is trying so hard to push and advance financial aid and spread the word that it IS possible to afford a Duke education even if you are only making $40,000 a year.</p>
<p>3) Duke is need-blind. Admissions officers cannot actively recruit underrepresented minorities (financially) because they have no idea whether you can afford Duke or not.</p>
<p>This is by NO means a Duke specific-problem, which you seem to be imaging it is. All of Duke’s peers (except maybe HYP) have this problem because the exclusivity and price of these schools (e.g.; Duke, Penn, Columbia, UChicago) seem to scare away kids who can’t think they can afford it. If you take data from those four schools, the student bodies will undoubtably have similar socioeconomic backgrounds.</p>
<p>And lastly, it is unfair of you to compare Duke’s financial aid to that of Harvard. Harvard is 288 years OLDER than Duke. This means that Harvard has had MUCH more time to develop the enormous endowment that it has (one only rivaled by one other institution: the Vatican Church). Duke is getting there, but because it is a younger school compared to ALL (I repeat: ALL) of its peers, it’s going to take a while to have the endowment of HYPS. </p>
<p>I just wanted to clarify this, because you were wrongly blaming Duke, a need-blind institution, for admitting you when you can’t afford it. My family makes about $100,000 a year; I still only have to pay half tuition. I don’t consider that shabby by any means, considering I got a similar financial aid package by Columbia, a much older peer institution.</p>
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<p>1) That Reveled Preference “findings” is the worst study I’ve seen regarding colleges. Look at the year (it’s so old and outdated) and has the worst sample size. Look at it yourself.</p>
<p>2) If you look at the ED results of Duke’s peer institutions, you’ll notice that they use ED much more heavily that Duke. I’ll use Columbia and Penn as examples. ED skews yields in favor of schools and masks actual yields well.</p>
<p>Duke: [Duke</a> Accepts 602 Early Decision Applicants](<a href=“http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2009/12/early_decision.html]Duke”>http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2009/12/early_decision.html)</p>
<p>For a class of 1,700, Duke admitted 602 students early decision. That’s roughly 1/3 - 35% of the incoming class. </p>
<p>Columbia: [Admission</a> Statistics | Columbia University Office of Undergraduate Admissions](<a href=“http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/applications/stats.php]Admission”>http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/applications/stats.php)</p>
<p>For a class of approximately 1300-1400, they admitted roughly 45-50% of it’s class or 639 students. That’s HUGE. They admit more students than Duke ED for fewer spots. If Columbia admitted only 1/3 of its class like Duke, the RD decision rate overall rate would rise. The yield would undoubtably decrease.</p>
<p>Penn: [Penn</a> Admissions: Incoming Class Profile](<a href=“http://www.admissionsug.upenn.edu/profile/]Penn”>http://www.admissionsug.upenn.edu/profile/)</p>
<p>For a target class size of 2,400, Penn admitted about 1,200 (again, roughly 50% of it’s incoming target class size). If Penn only admitted 800 students (1/3, similar to Duke), the RD decision rate overall rate would drastically rise. The yield would undoubtably decrease.</p>
<p>Since I work with the admissions office, I asked my admissions officers why they don’t accept more ED applications. They said that they don’t like playing the game as much as Penn, Columbia, et al, and that they know many students don’t apply ED in fear that they will be bound to a school that they cannot afford. In other words, they perceive that they are trying to be more fair.</p>
<p>Hope that clears stuff up.</p>
<p>If both Columbia and Penn take a higher percentage of their students thru ED, then that means the cross-admits (who didn’t apply ED) between these schools and Duke are not less likely to prefer Duke (than the students who applied ED to Columbia and Penn). So this weakens your point, actually. It is also irrelevant because the RP study, by virtue of the way it was conducted, excludes ED students.</p>
<p>^I’m confused by what you are saying. If Columbia and Penn take more students, that has no bearing on whether they prefer Duke or not. It just means that they were bound to Penn and Columbia and therefore strengthens those two schools’ yields. How does that weaken my point? If Duke accepted 50% of it’s class ED, the yield would be comparable to that of Columbia and Penn.</p>
<p>My point is that if Columbia and Penn draw a higher percentage of students thru ED, then that means they’re taking the students most llikely to favor their schools out of the equation. So the empirical finding that the majority of cross-admits prefer Columbia/Penn over Duke is underdetermined because the students who are most likely to prefer Columbia and Penn are not accounted for in the cross-admit battles. So the fact the Columbia and Penn use ED more than Duke actually counts against them. In any event, the point is moot because the RP study does not seem to include ED students.</p>
<p>RP, as I said, is a horrible study. Most will agree with me.</p>
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<p>You’re assuming, incorrectly, that everyone who applies ED to these schools actually wants to go there the most. Many students apply ED because they understand that it’s easier to get in and they’re willing to forgo chances at other top schools. If they only accepted 1/3 ED, then they’d probably lose some kids to HYP, state schools who’d give high scholarships, etc.</p>
<p>Again, the point is that Penn and Columbia’s yield is artificially high because of how ED skews it.</p>