I’m sure this has been talked about, a lot can change, etc etc, but from a metric standpoint with GPA and MCAT being the only requirement wouldn’t a easier school be wiser for a student with MD dreams?
Why would someone attend Rice, Trinity, UT Dallas, or other harder school (Yes, live in Texas) when the GPA might be hard to keep up.
While I know 1 MD who went to Stanford my friends that are MD’s went to normal schools LSU, La Tech, Univ of Ark for Undergrad all engineers ironically, they are insist GPA and MCAT its as simple as that.
Why go to a really hard school when the end game is not the undergrad anyway its just getting a solid education, great GPA, good recs, and of course a solid MCAT?
Some reasons may choose a more rigorous undergrad include: 1) the more rigorous education at one of those schools may help to better prepare the student for the MCATs 2) others here disagree, but I do think that med schools look at the school the GPA is from and don’t just take the GPA in a bubble 3) some students enjoy and even do better when challenged more by peers and professors. It is really up to each person to decide the best path for him/herself what will work best – certainly future MDs can come from any undergrad school.
Many students who start out as pre-meds change their minds and end up in a different career – and it’s not always because they couldn’t get high enough grades in their science courses. Sometimes, their interests simply evolve, and the career that seemed appealing at 18 doesn’t seem appealing at 22…
So it may make sense to consider the decision to pursue a career in medicine a tentative one and think about whether the college would also be a good choice if the student decides to go in another direction.
This seems kind of cynical. I think focusing on the experience of those 4 years for themselves, rather than merely as a a means to an end, works better. And I am not sure I would be happy with a doctor who aims for the least amount of work and difficulty as an undergrad (not that I would ever know).
Granted some of the best MD’s I know went to little-known colleges (and some majored in the humanities and arts) but not as a strategy like this.
An 18 year-old should really keep options open, as someone posted above. It is fine to major in whatever he or she wants. Spending 4 years so focused on a future goal that may change, can be unhealthy. Have your child read up on what it is like to practice medicine these days, too. Not like tv.
This question does pop up on CC a lot. Applicants want to know which schools practice grade deflation in the sciences or which schools write committee letters for med school applicants, but don’t write one if they don’t feel you are a strong candidate. My question back, is, if you are already worried before you get to college that you will not achieve a strong gpa or be in the top portion of the class, then maybe med school is not for you. Med schools take the best of the best. Med school is really tough. DRs need to be really smart. I for one, would feel more comfortable with a DR coming from a school where ‘the committee’ gave him/her support!
“A MD who graduated first in his class or last in his class is still a DR” the fact is undergrad is practically meaningless
in the world of MD’s and most countries you don’t even need it.
You learn the “drinking through the fire hose” method in med school and no undergrad will prepare you for that or the 2-6 years of residency that will happen after that as well, the BS part of the system is looking at AMCAS data that shows the gpa averages for gender/race and how it definitely not a even playing field.
So, given the option of spending 40k/yr+ at Rice and possibly not getting the magic 3.85 needed as a caucasian applicant or going to UTA, Texas A&M, Baylor, or even much less well known school and with a better shot at getting that grade why not?
There are two smaller LAC schools in texas, very loose requirements to get in, and they have 90, 92% matriculation rates respectively to med school that is higher than Rice!! Getting into Med School is as much art as anything else much like getting into a elite college is.
Why? GPA and MCAT prep…just wondering what people here thought thanks for you input.
That’s the OP’s whole point. You wouldn’t know. So is it worth the extra $$$ for something that in terms of actual career will make no difference or possibly hinder rather than help reaching one’s goals? Probably not.
I think it depends a lot on what you want out of college. Do you see it as an “experience” to extract the most out of from the teaching, environment, peers, opportunities? If so, a “better” school might give you that. Or, do you see college as simply a means to an end - a good job doing X - to get through by the simplest route possible? In that case, go to where you’ll have the easiest time. No shame in that. It’s all a matter of personal goals.
Unless a student has absolutely unlimited source of funding (and few do) I don’t think anyone here would argue that it would be wise for a pre-med to spend an extra $160K to attend Rice over a school like UTA with huge med school costs in the future.
However, in the case of the two LACs, I would be very careful about what numbers actually go into those med school matriculation rates. At many schools these percentages are done based on the number of applicants to med school supported by the school. So that would beg the following follow-up questions…1)What does it take for a med school applicant to be supported by that particular LAC (and when in the process are they selected?) and 2) on average how many students per year does the school support the applications of. In addition, more and more (certainly not all) med school applicants work for a year or two prior to applying to med school so I would also want to know if the school would support students who go that route as well.
And agree with above, that many people do switch out of pre-med while in college so having other choices available might be a consideration when choosing a school as well.
In the end it is your choice, but just be sure you have all the facts.
My guy made the choice he did because he loves in depth learning and the challenge of having deeper level classes (yes, there is a difference in most, if not all, classes). This is something he enjoys. He wanted to have fun in undergrad and has no regrets.
Another plus to him is the variety and level of research available to him. His close friend and peer in high school chose a lower level school and didn’t have nearly the variety of options to choose from. Both will become doctors (for that stage in their lives), but his peer actually envies my guy for his choice about undergrad.
This is actually a red flag. I would only advise someone to go to these schools intent on pre-med after careful digging to understand that number. Care to give the names of these schools?
There are 2 ways to get these eye-popping accept rates. One is to start with great students. It should be no surprise that kids getting into elite colleges that accept 5% or less turn out later to be in the 40% of med school applicants that are accepted.
The second and less well-known (among HS kids and their parents) method is to screen and only write a favorable committee letter to those with great chance of admission, as @happy1 has mentioned. All you really need to know is in this chart: https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf Let me write the committee letters and I could get any college in the country an astounding accept rate.
I have a good HS friend who graduated from Rice for both undergrad and med school. It was the school that gave her the most merit aid, and her actual cost of attendance was considerably lower than the state schools. I don’t know what her college GPA was, but she was one of our top students in HS.
That would be awesome seems strange Rice would be giving the most merit aid in any scenario unless it was Rice vs Ivy League lol.
They dont give much from what Ive seen. The kid down the street Valedictorian and football 1600 person high school picked a full ride to A&M over Rice his dad said “Didnt even cover 50%”.
I wonder in what scenario Rice gives the most compared to where?
OK, well there are a couple different ways of looking at this. My mom went to a smaller private school and was a “big fish in a little pond,” she always says. My dad went to Berkeley didn’t do that well GPA-wise but his MCAT’s were awesome. They both ended up at the same med school, UCSD.
So I guess there are advantages at both kinds of places. My Dad took a couple more years to get into med school because of his GPA. So I’d say go wherever you will look awesome, it probably depends more on you than the reputation of your school. A good GPA may not be enough from an "easier"school, my mom had published papers also. You just have to do the very best wherever you are.
@BFWON Rice gives a lot of need-based aid. If your family income is below $80K tuition is free. As far as merit goes, it might not give much. Most top schools, like Rice and the Ivies, give a lot of need-based aid but very little merit aid.
But yeah, every situation is different. My nephew picked TA&M over Rice for the exact same reason as your friend - full ride is hard to beat.
Perhaps it’s because I live some distance from TX and don’t know anyone attending TX public colleges, but my first impression would not have TA&M on anyone’s “lower level” or “bad” list. I would consider it a very respectable choice for a TX resident in the same way that Penn St or Virginia Tech are respectable (in general - excellent choices for engineering).
I just looked them up. A quick google search tells me they are #74 in National Universities. Maybe I’m odd, but I don’t consider that “bad.” They’re not even close to “bad,” esp for a pre-med wannabe - even if they change their minds later.
I would expect the school to have quite a few decent opportunities for students.
To the OP, if you want to target those medical schools located in your own state, “easier colleges” will be fine. Medicine is viewed by universities and medical schools as a public good. The admission policy tends to take a better care of their own residents and state college graduates because these new MDs tend to serve their own state residents in the future. Thus, you do not need to spend a lot of money on expensive private colleges if you are happy with those medical schools in your state.
In contrast, if you want to target those very top, elite medical schools, the strategy of choosing “easier colleges” often does not yield good results. Take Stanford as an example, about 20% of MD students whose most recent degrees are from Stanford itself; about 25% from Ivy schools, about 25% from the other top 30 national colleges, and about 20% from CA’s own state universities, mostly UCB, UCLA, UCI, and UCSD. This left about 10% of its MD slots to international students, other still-not-so-easy (beyond top 30) colleges, and “easier colleges.”
Tutumom2001 specifically said “merit based aid”. Alot of top schools give a good/great amount for need based though I think their calculations are severely screwed up.
Needs to be much lower or much higher!!
80k under is free, but you make 130k, 5 kids, and have a parent living with you nothing you are equally broke!!
It should be a much more exhaustive financial inquiry than just agi.
^ It is much more exhaustive using the CSS Profile. The FAFSA is just a test for federal financial aid. Rice uses the CSS Profile. Unfortunately the Profile review usually makes the numbers go UP.
Those 90%, 92% matriculation rates may omit that 100 students showed up on day 1 with dreams of being a MD. For any number of reasons most will change their minds (eg poor grades/MCAT, change in interests, realization that they will say bye bye to their 20s, maybe half of their 30s as well if fellowship training pursued, and are facing a minimum uphill 11 year slog (including college and residency). So of those who actually get to point of applying, 15 of them are still standing, apply, and 13 get accepted. The school proudly announces on their website that 90% of their premeds get into med school, conveniently omitted that 85 others started and are pursuing other pathways…Be very wary of published matriculation rates.
@BFWON First, we did not go to high school in Texas. Maybe that played into it. Also, we aren’t anywhere near “recent” graduates, so it is possible that things have changed over the years. Finally, my friend was also a National Merit finalist, made a perfect score on her SATs, was valedictorian in a class with several hundred students, was a student athlete, and played in our high-school band.
BUT - specifics about Rice and my friend aren’t the point. The OP wanted to know why someone would choose a tough college over an easier college. My point was that my friend chose a tough college because that college made it more affordable to attend. We had two classmates who opted to attend service academies (one became a doctor, one an engineer) because of cost. Another classmate who eventually became a doctor attended Stanford - and I’m assuming she got all kinds of aid because she grew up in a housing project.