East Coast/Mid Atlantic LAC's (CTCL) versus PNW. Insights on schools prior to touring appreciated!

College Search & Selection
1

I am in the process of planning a a college tour for my S17 in late Feb/early March and feedback on these schools would be greatly appreciated as all are far away and have been applied to without visiting. For all but one school our timing is off for admitted student visits but our dates are locked in so are making the most of what we can. It’s a lot of driving/travel though so the more we know up front will really ehlp!

The schools we are likely to visit are:

Allegheny - accepted with merit
Ursinus - accepted with merit
Goucher - should hear shortly, expect to be accepted

We will also be visiting UVM (accepted with merit) as part of the same trip.

Short background and desired feedback.

Liberal PNW kid, Environmental Science/Studies/Policy major with interest in renewable and sustainable energy as well as political science.

He does have 2 in state schools, Western Washington University (WWU) - accepted with merit and University of Puget Sound (UPS) - will hear mid Feb, likely to be accepted. He was also accepted at Ithaca with merit but at the moment it looks like we will cut it based on the financial offer. It is a bit more expensive than the rest (and the highest GPA requirement to keep the merit, difficult to get to from where we are) and there isn’t anything that seems to justify keeping it on at present but am open to feedback that suggests otherwise.

We both feel he will do better in a smaller school, WWU is the largest on his list. He really liked UPS but would love to be out of state and the schools chosen were done to try and find semi-similar schools that offered programs in his area. He is also a theater and music kid and all the schools chosen had to have both as an option to either play (jazz) or to work theater tech and in some cases have potential music and/or theater tech scholarships that he is applying for.

If anyone has been to UPS and can provide feedback on Allegheny, Ursinus and Goucher in comparison to UPS it would be helpful but really any feedback on all 3 is welcome to help us try to differentiate. Goucher has consistently made a strong impression with my S, showing him lots of love and great interaction (CTCL fair and interview). While he has not interviewed with Allegheny, they also have shown him a fair amount of love and have offered him the best $ package so far with a small additional music scholarship opportunity. Ursinus has been less personal on every level and is probably the most at risk of being cut pre-tour. We are awaiting their financial package, at the moment with just merit it is the most expensive after Ithaca (UVM only a tiny bit behind) and unless the FA package makes it comparable to Allegheny, which is stronger in his program area, I am not sure I see a good reason to keep it. S is reluctant to cut it yet though. The NPC indicated a total package that the merit offered falls short of so we will see. As a general rule we are full pay but due to the sticker price and 2 kids in school, they may offer some for his freshman year (and then again junior/senior when S19 goes). We may try to leverage the Allegheny offer at the others if needed but it is a bit early to say. I wouldn’t expect that to be successful at Ithaca or UVM though.

Currently in his mind his top 4 (in no particular order) are UVM, Goucher, UPS and Allegheny but of those he’s seen only 1!

Any input on major strength, overall campus feel, pro/con, theater, music and town/surrounding area would be greatly appreciated.

We are not looking to add any more schools and he has good reasons for not looking at the other PNW CTCL schools (or comparable) but I am happy to respond to questions as to why if needed. While there are many lovely higher ranked schools he might have gotten into on both coasts, as full pay, we were mindful of merit and total COA and the list reflects that as well as his desire to go OOS.

2

UVM is in a great city and has the outdoorsy vibe he would like as an environmental studies person. Its well situated to Canada, skiing, water, mountains, etc. Burlington is a great college town, but it’s cold!!You will have your down to earth types, but also lots of rich prep school types.

Allegheny seems well-rounded and what I think of as mainstream with Greek life. My one issue with this school is it’s location. I think the closest airport is in Pittsburgh and flights are very expensive. It would cost us more to fly to Pittsburgh from NYC than for us to go to Denver or Dallas, for example. Check out flight costs.

Goucher seems less mainstream and more artsy. I would think it attracts a different kind of student then you would find at Allegheny, but you will see when you visit. These are just things I have learned through my researching. If your son is super outdoorsy make sure that he can find that at Goucher. If he’s super artsy, make sure that he can find that at UVM. I will say that we know a professional photographer who graduated from UVM. I would describe him as artsy. I don’t really know much about Ursinus, but I would love to hear your impressions after visiting.

3

It is true that Pittsburgh, having lost USAIR hub status, has become a more expensive and less convenient destination. It has been a while since I’ve been there, but Allegheny felt like it was in Pittsburgh’s orbit, so more of a friendly, Midwestern, we’re watching football on Sundays vibe. (Pittsburghers are some of the friendliest, down to earth people you’ll meet.) Allegheny is also known for being supportive of kids with LDs, so very personal and committed to student success.

UVM probably has the most liberal vibe, and Burlington is a great town. Fun music places, restaurants, etc. It is a bigger school, public, and not as personal.

Ursinus will give your son access to Philly, which is a great city for young people. You’ll have to check it out. I know kids who were turned off at their tours, and yet I know similar kids who have had good experiences there.

Can’t help with Goucher.

4

What everyone said about Burlington. Probably the best college town/most outdoorsy option of the bunch. But also much larger than the others, so I suspect a radically different undergraduate experience. Not as familiar with the others except that by reputation they provide a more personalized undergraduate experience.

5

Looking back after launching 2 sons to college, here are some thoughts to consider comparing schools:
-look at course catalog carefully. Would he have to do thesis/capstone project at all or just some of these choices?
-how easy is it really to complete a study abroad (if he wants to do so)?
-for east coast schools, how far from airport and how difficult is it to travel from campus to airport? How expensive?

I can only give thoughts about the environment around Goucher-mil lives around the corner and we go to Towson often.
Goucher is a lovely wooded campus tucked in the middle of Towson-a suburb of nearby Baltimore. The airport (BWI) is at least 30 min away and it may not be easy to get to campus and/or expensive to do so.

Towson is nice mid-size town with lots of shopping, restaurants and a movie theater within a long walks reach. Shuttles are probably available though. Towson University is right down the road, so plenty of college students in the area.

Baltimore is not far, but with traffic can easily take 30 min to get to. Lots to do in Baltimore (obviously) but will shuttles run late enough and often enough so he can actually go to events that get out late? This was a concern of ours in a different city for us with S2.

Goucher is definitely the ‘artsy’ school in the greater Baltimore area,other than MICA. Back in the stone age I went to Towson U, but always wished I was at Goucher!

6

Ursinus is very small, the town is very cute and you can easily get to the King of Prussia mall (country’s largest!) or two closer, smaller shopping centers. Philly is also accessible in an hour or so depending on traffic.

The tour at Ursinus does go through one of th oldest dorm buildings on campus. I don’t know why they insist on doing that when they have much nicer, newer buildings.

Ursinus compared to Goucher - Goucher is closer to a bigger town (Towson) and probably feels more metropolitan. Ursinus has a lovely campus but is a little farther out in the suburbs.

7

@citymama9 he says he wants cold. We will see how real that is. He is a mix of outdoorsy, artsy and hipster. Not at all a big rah rah school sports type kid but I’d probably call him outdoors lite (at least from a PNW perspective) where he likes to camp and hike but doesn’t own a ton of gear or do it all that much.

Coming from Seattle the flights can be relatively equal cost wise if booked out far enough in advance. Philly and Baltimore are far easier with some nice non stop options, especially BWI. Allegheny does have shuttles for the kids from both Cleveland and Pittsburgh, Pitt flights run a tad cheaper. We are actually flying into Erie for the visit but in general that will be a more expensive option and will not have the shuttles. Burlington is the one that could be priciest for flights if we don’t plan well, for us, as there aren’t a ton of great routes and many will be 3 legs, though not all.

@gardenstategal that is great info on Allegheny. I hadn’t thought about the midwestern aspect but that makes a ton of sense to me. I used to cover that part of the country for work and that was the vibe. Fabulous info on the LD’s. S does have ADHD. He despises (and will not take/ask for) any accommodations but it would be really nice to know the resources are in place for it.

Proximity to Philly is really what got Ursinus on the list. And their NPC which so far, doesn’t line up with the offer. Both it and Goucher are definitely not remotely as strong in his area of interest but their locations were very appealing to him and each seemed to offer something different. However, given that interests and majors can change we wanted a bit of flexibility so didn’t rule them out either.

@porcupine98 yes, we expect UVM to be quite different than the other 3. In many ways I think it will be similar to Western (WWU) but with a more traditional flagship feel (sports and greek life). It will definitely be less personal although I do have to say all our interactions so far have been wonderful. That’s why I was asking primarily about the LAC’s as UVM compared to the rest is definitely apples to oranges. I suspect Ithaca would have fallen somewhere in the middle which is why it was on the list but the price tag knocked it off. Though not that much higher than UVM, S has always preferred UVM so if we want a higher priced option, I would as soon stick with the one that seems a better fit (and is easier to get to all things considered, plus no PROFILE to deal with lol).

@Marylandfour we have already done the catalog exercise, travel abroad, travel to and from etc. As well as who requires more FL, who requires PE, any placement tests required etc. Dual major required, minor required, minor options etc. Live on campus requirements, etc. Done prior to applying.There are definitely differences and pros and cons to each. We will definitely revisit all of that as he actually decides. S17 is pretty used to navigating public transportation in a big city, about 30 minutes outside of downtown so for both Philly and Baltimore we aren’t terribly worried about his ability to go to “the city” should he wish to. We expect that would be more on weekends and not all the time. Plus for whatever reason, the kid is a professional mooch. He can find a ride to anything, it’s crazy. For both of those schools I will not be at all surprised if several students there do have cars (he will not).

@surfcity Ursinus may feel similar to UPS in that regard. Not that Tacoma is small but it’s a pretty suburban campus located a couple of miles from a small section of town that has stuff. The big city (Seattle) is an hour+ away depending on traffic. Good to hear that the town is cute. On the dorms, I don’t expect that to be a big issue. It’s funny, when this process first started cool dorms was high on S’s list. As it progressed it became less of an issue (well that and they all largely seemed the same) and then after a 1 week summer class at WWU living in one, his take is…a dorm is a dorm is a dorm.

8

Thanks all for the input! I would love any travel insight/thoughts for our tour.

As it stands today here is the plan. 2/25 is the start date.

Saturday night arrive Burlington
Sunday - Enjoy Burlington
Monday - Admitted Students info session. Unfortunately he can’t make the actual admitted students info days and it doesn’t appear that he will be able to sit in on a class or meet with any faculty but it will be mildly better than the generic tour since it is admitted students only.

Tuesday - Most of the day in Burlington. Fly to Erie in the evening. (super cheap flight compared to leaving monday lol). Arrive late. I have not yet booked a room for this night as debating between staying in Erie or making the drive to Allegheny. It looks like many of the Erie hotels are 20 min + from the airport so it may make more sense to suck it up and drive to Meadville but I am concerned about weather (snow) and driving in the dark so haven’t decided what to do.
Wednesday - Allegheny. He can’t make an admitted student day ehere either but they are being amazing figuring out a custom full day for him. He may have the ability to do an overnight but it depends on the rest of the week which is still in flux. If not, we will check out the town and it will be fine.

If Ursinus stays on the list
Thursday Morning

[ul]Option 1. We drive from Allegheny to Ursinus in time for an afternoon tour. I am not a fan of this option to be honest between the sheer hours of driving and potential for winter weather conditions.
Option 2. Drive to Pittsburgh and fly to Philly, rental car to Ursinus…[/ul]Thursday Afternoon - Tour Ursinus, Evening and overnight night in downtown Philly
Friday - drive to Baltimore, tour Goucher. Spend night in Towson
**Saturday ** - spend morning in Baltimore, fly out that night

If we cut Ursinus
Thursday

[ul]Option 1. S has an overnight at Allegheny and sits in on a class in the am. Drive to Pittsburgh or Erie, fly to Baltimore late afternoon, spend night in Towson
Option 2. S has an overnight at Allegheny and sits in on a class in the am. We check out Meadville the remainder of the day, spend night there. Early am flight direct to Baltimore out of Erie.[/ul]Friday - Tour Goucher. Spend night in Towson. If we’ve come in on Thursday night then we could spend friday night in Baltimore as an alternative.
Saturday - Spend morning in Baltimore, fly out that night.

At the moment here is what is locked in [ul]Train to Burlington from NYC. We will both be there already for different reasons and I don’t want to drive, plus it will be the one day he can catch up on homework for the week. LOL!
Flight from Burlington to Erie
Flight from Baltimore to Seattle.[/ul] I have hotels booked for most nights but all can be cancelled or changed. Current bookings are [ul]Sat-Tues - Burlington
Tues
Weds - Meadville (Allegheny)
Thurs - Philly
Fri - Towson[/ul] I also have cars booked for all of the options above. Assuming flights do not go up, cutting Ursinus will save us about $300 but that’s not the right reason to cut it.

It is making me crazy not to be able to lock in the 2nd half of the trip. I would really like to see the FA offer from Ursinus before firming those plans but I worry about missing out on flights/prices going up. We will see it this month but heaven only knows when.

Thoughts and input very very much appreciated!

9

UVM has a very strong environmental sciences program. A lot of kids who are attracted to the ES program at Middlebury but don’t get in there end up at UVM. And I echo the other posters in saying Burlington is a great college town.

10

We didn’t consider Midd due to cost :slight_smile: I am looking forward to checking out Burlington. Even if he doesn’t end up there it should be a fun trip together and while it’s crunching the end of the trip to have 3 days there, it will really give him a good feel of the area. Program wise, UVM and Allegheny beat the others hands down.

11

@eandesmom , please report back! It’s always helpful to get the up to date low-down!

12

IS there a reason you are saying in Philly as opposed to near Ursinus? Do you want S to see Philadelphia? I ask because if you end up flying from Pittsburgh to Philly, you will drive from the airport to Ursinus and then back to the city and that is a lot of driving with potential traffic to deal with.

If you head to Towson from Ursinus, you can bypass I95 altogether and take a much easier route of 30 to 10 to 1.

If you end up driving from Allegheny to Ursinus, then I can see driving to the city to stay and see that area before heading to Towson, although you will then take 95.

Any more driving questions, please ask!

13

I know you aren’t looking for new schools but did you consider Dickinson? Good in your son’s areas of interest, merit aid available, and still taking apps until 1/15.

14

@gardenstategal I will!

@surfcity staying in Philly isn’t a requirement. He would prefer to, to see the city but if it doesn’t make sense driving wise, he will have to deal with it. When I looked originally the rates near Ursinus seemed quite high and I wasn’t sure how much there would be to do in the evening, so downtown seemed better and then easy to head to Goucher (it showed it as being less travel time on google maps than heading from Collegeville) but if that isn’t the case it can definitely be revisited.

I would love your thoughts on driving from Meadville to Philly versus driving to Pittburgh and flying from there.

@doschicos I did look at Dickinson although it was a long time ago. S had originally rejected schools that were too far away from major metropolitan areas (over an hour) and it seemed to fall into that category and was too expensive to boot. Allegheny of course does as well but the program is strong and the NPC made it seem livable. I took a peek at the original NPC I ran on Dickinson and it only showed a small FA amount. I reran it and it still only shows some FA but it doesn’t appear their NPC factors in scholarships. Even factoring that in, it’s out of our price range.

Right now with merit (factoring in % increase in COA for 2017-18) we are looking at

Allegheny 36K (music scholarship potential of 1-2k)
UVM 42K (scholarship potential of 2.5k though this one is unlikely)
Ursinus 43K (possibly 32-35 after FA for 3 out of the 4 years)

The Goucher NPC shows similar to Allegheny but I don’t trust it. Dickinson, best case scenario would be 40K for 3 years but 60K in year 2, the year we don’t have any overlap. Worst case is well, worse. So…I am sure it would be lovely but his stats aren’t high enough for higher awards and as such, it’s too far outside of the budget to consider. As are many many of the lovely LAC’s out there. We stuck to less competitive schools and matches and safeties only.

15

I won’t be surprised if UVM goes to the top after visiting. Will also be interested if Allegheny rises as well, perhaps the deciding factor whether or not he wants big school or small? If he really likes access to outdoor activities- hiking, mountain biking, skiing (not just “going for a walk” in the woods)- I just can’t see how Goucher or Ursinus compare to the others. I grew up north of Baltimore, spent a good deal of time around Philly as a kid as well, and I sure don’t think of them as fits for an outdoorsy type kid! But of course that’s why our kids visit- it will be great for you guys to do this trip to see for yourselves how it feels to be on campus. Really looking forward to a report.

16

And, since you are in Burlington already, have you looked up Champlain College? Really pretty campus. Practically adjacent to UVM. Smaller, no engineering, but outdoorsy/artsy/hipster type kids for sure. Just thought I would mention it… hahaha… even though I know you aren’t interested in looking at anymore

17

The drive across PA isn’t bad if the weather cooperates. Tolls on the turnpike are high, but there are lots of service plazas and if it does snow, it is usually tended to more quickly than the (non-toll) interstate, although 80 would be my choice out to the middle of the state. Airfare for 2 between Pittsburgh and Philly can be ridiculous given the distance. (I’d have to look at a map, but I think the drive to the airport will be a bit of a hassle.) Although flying will save you time, I would say not enough to justify the cost.

Curious to hear if someone has a different take.

18

Driving from Meadville to Collegeville looks to be about 5.5 hours according to Google, using mostly i80 which is a well traveled road. I think it’s a personal decision if you’d rather just be in a car and drive, or drive to airport, park, security, fly for an hour (?), land, rental, drive to Collegeville. The drive from the airport to Ursinus is going to take an hour with normal or little traffic. If it’s rush hour, then longer. An alternative is to fly into Lehigh Valley as the roads that way will not be as busy.

If you and your son want to see Philly, then of course that is a great way to spend some time. If you are just looking for ways to entertain yourself, if you stay in Collegeville you can visit Valley Forge National Park which is an easy drive and very doable, lots of see at your own pace. There is also the country’s largest mall - King of Prussia. Closer to the school is Providence Town Center with the usual assortment of chain stores and restaurants - Panera, Loft, Ulta, Wegmans, DSW, etc. The town of Collegeville and the neighboring town of Phoenixville have cute little indie restaurants and some retail.

19

@lr4550 no, we didn’t look at Champlain. Or at least I don’t recall. If there were no additional essays required it might be worth tossing in there for kicks since we will be there for 3 days. It does look quite interesting actually.

20

Saint Michael’s College is another to pop by and visit if you have the time in Burlington. Apps due 2/1.