No religious schools 
which cut at least one that would have been good in my opinion but oh well. Some of his have religious origins but are not now, or is very loose. He was a bit flexible in that area, however she was not flexible at all when it came to Jesuit for Catholic schools.
Hey eandesmom!
I will share my impressions from my visits to Goucher and Ursinus with my own S17 while he was a junior - so last school year.
We visited Goucher for an open house - it was a beautiful, warm fall day. They had some presentations in a big auditorium with a huge stage. I specifically remember the President of the college (newly appointed - this may be his second year) - I was so impressed with his vision of college education teach in students how to become life-long learners. Other impressions - I thought the three main educational buildings were laid out close together, and it was my impression that the science labs that we saw on a quick walk through looked a bit dated. The tour guide talked about a bio student friend who was selected to help her professor with cutting edge research in the Caribbean somewhere, and then went on to co-author and get published.
The student center was new, had a cafe (Aliceās Cafe - I was wondering why they didnāt just call it Aliceās Restaurant; music reference was lost on tour guide lol). The student center had the library and work out equipment and a performance space where one of their a capella groups performed. They served us a picnic lunch, and the food was good. Overall impression - small, tightly knit, welcoming, artsy student body (theater, dance and equestrian programs were all mentioned). Oh yes, they had both professors and students hanging around to chat with us after lunch. Son got a welcoming, quirky vibe. His favorite feature was that one of the āspecial housingā choices was a video gamer dorm.
Will post about Ursinus next.
Oops - one other thing I liked about Goucher - I noticed the zip cars in their parking lot. Agree with previous posters about the woodsy feel to the campus, even though suburban Towson shopping is right down the street.
Ok Ursinus ā I really liked the campus - it felt more spread out, with an eclectic mix of traditional and modern buildings - an art museum on campus, and lots of art sculptures and Adirondack chairs sprinkled on the big grassy quads between buildings.
This was one of the first schools where S17 sat in on a history class - actually āHistographyā - something like that, combining History and Geography. Son noted that the professor brought some short readings and maps to class - son reported that he was able to actively participate in the class (and he self-reported that he thought some of the students were being slow to pick up the professorās main points.) This did not bode well for the schoolās academic rigor, but would be unfair to judge from one class. Based on the tour, I remember the bio lab we saw looked like it had up-to-date equipment, with microscopes every lab station. There was a very new performing arts building - I think it had both a black box theater and a regular theater in the same building - my overall impression of the theater building and the classrooms were new/well maintained. There is a very nicely wooded river trail (converted from old railroad tracks) along one edge of the campus - I walked about 20 minutes out - looked like the trail went on quite a ways. Cute town with a couple of restaurants and a grocery store in walking distance.
The admissions interview for S17 was conducted by a senior who was working in Admissions. Iirc, I sat in on the interview, which was sonās first - the senior did a great job explaining everything I knew from the CTCL book; the senior was wearing a button down shirt and tie, and introduced himself as a member of the football team. S17ās impression was that almost all the students looked like athletes to him. It was another very sunny day, and most kids were in shorts and sneakers, and while I hadnāt noticed it myself at first, I agreed with sonās assessment. I looked later at the campus map, and for about the same number of students as Goucher, Ursinus has about twice the number of playing fields on the campus. Ursinus students did feel more mainstream than Goucher artsy/alternative vibe students though I would still say friendly and small.
Whew - those were our impressions ā but based on our earliest campus visits, looking through the eyes of a decidedly quirky, socially awkward academically- but not atheletically- inclined then junior in high school. My son felt more comfortable wit Goucher than with Ursinus, though they both ultimately fell off his list.
We headed east with D15 to visit Goucher and we drove out to Ursinus in the evening so didnāt tour. This was a kid who thought UPS was her number one choice at the time. We didnāt make it past the interview which was conducted before the tour. It was her only bad interview experience because she felt like she was on the witness stand. We did explore Towson a little just to find someplace to eat lunch. We thought it looked quite upscale and not of much use to college students on limited budgets, though there is a Trader Joes. I donāt know anything about the diversity of the school, but we ended up eating lunch at a Whole Foods-like grocery store nearby campus where we felt distinctly uncomfortable that the majority of the employees were African American and the majority of the customers were Caucasian.
Ursinus felt like a nothing town in the boonies with no services that students might use available walking distance from campus. There was a shopping center out by the main highway, but I donāt know anything about shuttles/local public transportation. D15 did not apply. People often say that Beloit, WI (where she ended up) is a nothing town, but there is a lot more available walking distance than there appeared to be in Collegeville.
@lr4550 yes, it will likely come down to LAC versus mid sized university as there are obviously distinct differences. He likes urban as well as the outdoors so ideally wants both but thatās easier said than done. Allegheny has already risen, it wasnāt in the top 4 before and the more I learn I think (on paper anyway) it is the best fit of the 3 LACās we will be visiting. The other favorite LAC is local.
As for Champlain, it certainly would be easy enough to apply, free and no additional essays but looking through rankings and such it doesnāt seem to fare terribly well and while I donāt get overly hung up on those things it is ranked pretty low for the NE so was wondering what your thoughts on it compared to the others he is looking at. Iāll get an eye roll if I suggest another out of the blue school so need a good rationale (beyond itās in Burlington and the NPC looks quite good compared to UVM lol).
@gardenstategal it is the weather that concerns me or I wouldnāt even consider flying. If we cut Philly then I think it makes a lot more sense to fly but if we keep it, driving works. It does however mean leaving ridiculously early in the am, but it is doable.
@surfcity my concern with that 5.5 hour estimate is how accurate it is. My experience has been some of those estimates can be woefully short not accounting for toll plazas, weather or traffic. If itās really more of an 6.5-7 hour drive and we have a 2pm tourā¦ we are on the road at 5am or earlier. Which is doable I suppose but blech and in reality would need to leave that early I suppose just to be safe. It is the weather that is the concern, if I knew it would likely be fine Iād just suck it up.
Hi @CoyoteMom ! I seem to recall now that you posted about both of these visits, either on the up/down thread or our 2017 subset. Super helpful and I appreciate you doing it again! I remember the Aliceās cafe comment cracking me up. It may well have been before either of these 2 were even on our radar. How do they not get the musical reference? Oh well, S17 might not get it either now that I think about it. I like the Goucher president too, or at least i love the fact that they arenāt raising tuition this year. Did Goucher fall off due to too artsy? S17 is not remotely athletically inclined but he is definitely not socially awkward and I would actually prefer that he is at a school with a strong mix of students, political, interest and other versus too narrow of a field if that makes sense. He needs to be exposed to balance and is in a bit of a bubble where we live. Which he knows and is part of wanting to branch out (so he can come back).
@1518mom thank you for your input! Diversity is a big deal to S so that would bother him tremendously however he will be exposed to that simply by leaving where we are, i know I had a culture shock in that respect when I first moved to Chicago from the west coast, very similar experience to yours but at a Burger King. Iād never seen anything like it. Did you visit Goucher and if so, what were your thoughts? I really wanted him to consider Beloit but couldnāt get him to budge. Had she visited UPS already and can you compare what she thought about Ursinus and Goucher in relation to UPS?
@eandesmom I myself wasnāt really aware of Champlain until a friend of mineās son applied last year and is a freshman this year. I briefly saw them over the holidays and he seems happy there. He Likes his classes and professors, has made good friends. I believe he is studying computer animation and graphic art but not totally positive about his major. I could very easily connect you with my friend if you want to find out moreā¦ send me a PM and I can forward her email to you. FYI weāre from MT so this kid travels far to attend Champlain.
Weāre taking a family vacation over spring break to visit D15 and will be flying into Burlington. D18 will definitely look at UVM, that is all set up. I am tempted to also have her take a look at Champlain even if not an official visit. I too have concerns about it being so unknown (and so low ranking) but if it fits the kid and has a low COA I figure a drive by canāt hurt. The program seems to have a sound reputation. Itās definitely not a typical college (for better or worse), and it does sound interesting.
FYI my D18 has some schools on her list in common with your sonās list- particularly Puget and Western Washington. So I am very interested to hear how your sonās visits unfold. She is also interested in L&C, Whitman, CC, Bates, Pitzer and Scripps. I was hoping she would be interested in Allegheny as that school caught my eye for her but for some reason she didnāt want to do a midwest swing (and she considers it more midwest I guess). On paper Allegheny seems to have a lot going for it. Looking forward to that report!
Best of luck on your trip and let me know if you want the Champlain contact.
Weāve seen UVM as well as Middlebury and Marlboro in Vermont. My D also visited Goucher. She mostly likes medium size publics though she enjoyed both Goucher and Marlboro to keep them on her list. UVM is a top choice. A great campus and town and probably the best for outdoorsy. It is a small city, Burlington, so you might want to see Middlebury for kicks, or go skiing, or touring in the wider area for the time youāll be there. Or you could see SUNY Plattsburgh as it is near Burlington.
None will likely be particularly diverse, at least didnāt seem that way to my kid who has always attended majority minority schools. I would suggest keeping Philadelphia on your list if your son wants to visit. It is a great town. You might check Amtrak as the Philly station is very nicely located. And you can probably get close to Goucher on the train as well. Not sure about trains from Pitt to Philly but boy is PA turnpike a miserable winter drive. Not sure if Marlboro is on list, itās in a different part of state of VT, but it is VERY crunchy and unusual. They have tuition scholarships for students from different states. Only 300 kids, so as I mentioned it is different. Let us know how the trip pans out!
I was going to suggest looking at the Amtrak locations/schedules and I see that @treschicos has already suggested it. We were able to fly to and from the east coast while doing all the local travels on Amtrak. It was great to not have to worry about traffic, directions, and the road conditions.
For those of you who have kids who are more liberal, outdoorsy, environmentally focused, take a gander at Quest in Canada. Very different school, but very cool. Iāve met a few young men who attended/currently attend through my kids who are interesting young people and have been happy there.
A friendās D attended Ursinus and graduated 2 years back with a degree in environmental studies. She is now in a masters program for sustainable agriculture at UVM. She loved her time at Ursinus, and was able to study abroad and had several internships.
My oldest D also applied to Ursinus back in 2012. We were impressed on our tour and she was able to sit in on a science class as well meet informally with a professor. She was able to schedule an interview and that was great for asking questions. We got the feeling that Ursinus has a very strong sense of community. The campus is in a small suburban town, but not too far from shopping areas and philly. My D was looking for smallish LACS with good science programs and Ursinus fit the bill.
@lr4550 I am happy to answer any questions I can about Western and UPS. UPS is in his top 3. He actually had a lovely offer from them today from an affiliate artist in his instrument (which a seriously fab resume of his own) who offered to give S a free lesson/audition review prior to his non major scholarship audition. I had no idea colleges ever offered that kind of thing. S has his own private teacher who is working with him but I think he should do it for sure, very cool and generous offer.
Both are local, S17 actually took a 1 week long class Environmental Energy class at Western over the summer and we know kids at both (and adults, including family who are alums). Western is his financial safety, heād be fine there itās just not his top choice. āToo much like homeā in his words. I do think heād do better at a smaller school, whether UVM is āsmallā enough I am not sure, I put it in the same category as Western. Both are very strong in his program area so we will be trying to determine what advantage UVM really has for the substantially higher price tag. We also know a number of kids at Whitman and L&C, both great schools though very different than Western or UPS, each has itās own vibe to be sure. Both would have been a reach for my S (his chances were better at Reed ) and as a result the price tag just wasnāt going to work so they fell off the list early. If your D hasnāt looked at Willamette, thatās another one to consider.
@treschicos we are aware anything in Vermont isnāt going to be terribly diverse. Goucher and Ursinus, in concept, provided a couple of options that would be more so. We looked briefly at Marlboro but far too small! We looked at several in Vermont, at this point they blur a little bit lol.
As for the train, Iāve looked at it extensively. No great way via train from Allegheny (that I can see) unless we drive to Pittsburgh. And then itās an all day train as it has a ton of stops and a transfer in Harrisburg. Definitely a ton seemed faster to fly if that was the choice but I would love input if you think train is a better way to go. It looked like a 9 hour train ride though and not a late night option. If we had an extra day I might do it for downtime, but we donāt. Your comment about the PA turnpike being a miserable winter drive is my exact fear. I hate driving enough as it is! I did see that the Philly station was nicely located and would certainly work to get us to Baltimore but at that point itās a lot of returning and re-picking up cars so it didnāt seem to be much of an advantage to consider that to get us to Baltimore. While he does want to see Philly, itās not like we will have a ton of time there to see much. But a snapshot can tell you a fair amount. As much of a pain as different airports and rental cars will be, in this cases versus the turnpike in the winter it may be the best option. We shall see.
@doschicos at this point we arenāt looking at additional schools (not to mention that would be cost prohibitive from a flight standpoint from Seattle) but thank you.
@mamag2855 that is very good to hear. S did not interview as they didnāt offer any locally, and they donāt seem to be offering him much in the way of anything beyond a standard tour since we canāt make admitted student events so that is a tad frustrating. (In comparison both Allegheny and Goucher are bending over backwards to schedule specific things of interest even though it isnāt admitted student days at either school as well). Where did your D end up? We will see how the FA shakes out as that will definitely impact how much sense it makes.
Second the Quest recommendation. Three young women from our community are there and they love it. Very international feel, smack dab in the middle of incredible mountains. And it is on a block plan so a lot kids interested in Colorado Collegeās block plan find it a less selective and more affordable option.
Youāre right, the trains running west-east are pokey and not like the terrific NE corridor options. Weāve driven PA turnpike a lot and I really do dislike it, but maybe it will just be a grit your teeth and get through it. And you can have a nice road trip conversation. Just try not to drive at night or in rain and sleet. Lots of trucks and hills. I drove 2,000 miles this summer getting three kids all over the place and did not mind those drives as much as that darn PA turnpike. But Iām a flatlander, so if you drive in Western mountains, it may be nothing to you.
Funnily, you can take a train to Vermont from Baltimore area, but itās easier to fly, especially from Burlington. We saw a lot of Philadelphia in 12 hours, and that is including the 5 hours we spent at Drexel (so 7 hours traipsing the streets). Pick a site or two and hit those early and you will have at least gotten a flavor. We didnāt cab or Uber at all and we hit UPenn campus, Drexelās tour, Reading Market, Chinatown, Rittenhouse Square, and went to see the Liberty Bell, all on foot. Favorite part was probably walking through City Hall.
We did a lot of traveling this summer with multiple airports and car rentals. I highly recommend choosing a good rental company (I like Enterprise and almost always rent from them), not just the cheapest. And for Hertz, sign up for their Gold ahead of time (free) because if you are a Gold member there may be a separate, better line. Iāve had enough frustrations with local cheap rentals and with other large chains that it is not worth risking working with them for a few bucks savings. It was nice to come and go as we wanted instead of depending on plane timetable.
@eandsmom -Keeping in mind that I have never actually driven from Pittsburgh to Philly - I also hate the parts of the PA Turnpike that Iāve driven ā but you can take Interstate Route 80 the whole way across the State! No tolls! The problematic parts of PA turnpike - the lanes seem extra narrow, and lots of tall Jersey barriers next to the narrow lanes. Iāve only driven on Rt 80 extensively through NJ - but certainly in NJ it has the wide Interstate lanes and a big grassy median - PA will be hillier than most of NJ, but I would definitely take Route 80 rather than driving into Pittsburgh to fly, and you never have to drive on the dreaded PA turnpike.
Yes - I did write those reviews of Goucher and Ursinus before somewhere! Goucher was too artsy, and Ursinus too jock-y for CoyoteSon; but I have also gotten a feel for some LACs being more āscienceyā than others - I think Ursinus might be a better bet for the science + theater; I really only got the theater/dance vibe from Goucher. Thatās why, given that youāre coming all the way from the West Coast, in your shoes, I would make the effort to see all 4 schools - thereās no substitute for your son checking out the campus himself. (And bleh on early morning starts - I hate them too ā but as long as all 4 are still āin playā financially, then I would hesitate to knock one out without seeing it for myself.)
ābut you can take Interstate Route 80 the whole way across the State! No tolls!ā
Iāve done that drive across PA many times. Itās not bad if the weather is okay. Only downside to I-80 is the tractor trailer truck traffic. They all take it to save on tolls.
By the way, I know eandesmom does not need any other suggestions, but for combining science and music and theater, I really like Lawrence University - Iāve seen some of their marketing emails, and I have found them the most clever of all the unsolicited deluge.
@eandesmom my D who applied to Ursinus was accepted there and was offered a nice merit scholarship, but ended up attending the University of Richmond with a larger merit scholarship.
I gather that Ursinus is not offering interviews when you are scheduled to visit? That is a bummer, as it is nice to have that extra opportunity to ask questions. I remember having a very good tour guide at Ursinus, a senior, I think, who was also very knowledgeable and answered many questions for us during the tour.
@treschicos I travel extensively for work so am pretty much a member at any rental car company out there. I used to be a huge Hertz gold fan but anymore, everyone else beats there rates, often by a lot, so rarely rent from them any more. That said, Iāve gotten old and spoiled. I used to have to drive everywhere for work back in the day, including a lot of nasty winter driving all over the midwest in a 13 state radiusā¦which included a bit of PA though usually Iād fly into Philly. Now I tend to fly to a site, take a cab, uber or shuttle to my event and the same back to the airport. I despised all that driving and feel the same about it even at home. It is complicated by some severe dry eye issues, bad weather and nighttime causes severe strain (and pain) and I try to minimize it as much as I can. 2 hours is really my comfort window, a 5-7 hour stretch is really not something I want to do any more. I canā¦I just donāt want to and if it were summer Iād suck it up but am concerned about dark, sleet, snow and rain. All are probable/possible.
There is a 8:20 am flight out of Pittsburgh to Philly, lands at 9:30. According to Google itās a 90-100 minute drive. It would mean driving the dark, leaving at 5:00 am but it looks like a straight shot on 79 though I have no clue if they it is a hilly or otherwise challenging drive. Other options are via I-79 S 80 and I-376 E or via I-79 S, PA-68 W and I-376 E
So that is probably 2 hours of driving in the am and then it another 45-60 from the airport to Ursinus, and another 45-60 back downtown (if we donāt stay out there) makes it a total of 4 hours of driving, broken up. Does it save time? No, not really as we are turning in rental cars and picking them up. Does it help my eyes and stress level? Tremendously. It does give us a LOT more time on campus though, at Ursinus.
Alternatively the drive is 5.5 hours. Allow for 2 stops and traffic and or weather and I suspect it is really more like 6-6.5. That amount of time, with hills and trucks and possible winter weather is definitely a concern. We wouldnāt have to leave quite as early but would still likely want to be on the road at 6am.
Currently we are scheduled for a 2pm tour which seems safe for either option. But if we fly I we should be able to to do lunch there and wander around a fair amount before the 90 minute tour and info session. I am hoping he can at least meet with a faculty member, I need to call them to schedule as I thought Iād requested it but zero word from them on that. Either way we will not have much time at all in Philly, just the evening. However if we have more time on campus before the tour, we could leave right at 3:30 which gets us down maybe before the worst of rush hour and more evening time to enjoy in the city.
Ursinus does offer a āsemester in Phillyā option, with Drexel so at a minimum weād drive by it.
@CoyoteMom
In play financially is debatable. In reality both Ursinus (anticipated at 43K before FA) and UVM (42K) are over budget. UVM has a potential scholarship and does have the advantage of off campus housing after year 1 so the potential for savings there. Ursinus may toss some FA our way for years 1, 3 and 4. If there is no FA offered at Ursinus I am not sure it makes an ounce of sense to keep it on the list, UVM is stronger in his program area and has many other benefits. But if they do (and according to the NPC it could be a decent amount) that does change the picture. The question is whether we wait for the FA offer or if I just book it and then if he loves it, try to negotiate lol. I do think we have some leverage on that side (and might try anyway) given that the Allegheny offer is substantially better. If Goucher comes in around the same as Allegheny that would help although I suspect that Ursinus would see Allegheny as āmoreā of a competitor than Goucher but thatās just my gut.
The good news is that the flight seems to be pretty locked and stable at the price (more than I want to pay of course) but for my peace of mind I am leaning towards spending the extra $300, it just sounds like a much easier day that way.
BTW I love Lawrence. S17 vetoed the location but S19 is pretty interested in it. Iām a bit concerned it will be out of his price range by the time we get there but it is definitely on his list. He has some similar parameters but different geographic quirks (wants to be able to see water of some sort). Different major areas of interest but also mixed: Physics, Film/Screenwriting (though English/Writing will do) and Political Science and wants to continue playing Jazz. Unlike his brother he will consider warm locations as long as it isnāt deep south (politically). My H really really loves the idea of Lawrence as itās (relatively) near Oshkoshā¦which holds the ultimate plane geek event every summer
@doschicos I suspect thatās similar to taking 90 across the country, which I have done in its entirety. Or 5 up and down the coast, same issue with the trucks etc.
@mamag2855 they are offering interviews but they are definitely targeted towards prospective students. He has spoken with a couple of people at length at 2 different fairs and I donāt think he feels heād get more out of an interview at this point than he has already. If he can meet with a faculty though, or sit in on a class, that would be fabulous. I am going to call them today on that front. We didnāt look at Richmond. MD was as far āsouthā as he would consider. It might be one I should look at for S19 though!
Well it may be an extra $300 and a more complicated schedule but I am more worried about regretting we didnāt check it out later so I think we are going to keep Philly in the schedule and hope that the FA offer justifies it. LOL! I do think we may have leverage there for an offer though so there is that as well.
2 questions for the super helpful PA travel people @treschicos @gardenstategal @surfcity
- We land in Erie at 10:30pm. It seems to be a 45 min drive, straight shot to Meadville on 79. Is there anything unusual about that drive that would make staying in Erie a better choice for that night or should it be easy to head straight to Meadville. Erie doesn't seem to have much until you get out to where it intersects 90 and then you are part of the way there already.
- Is there anything unusual about the drive from Meadville to the Pittsburgh airport I should be aware of. I spoke to Ursinus and really, flying is going to be better for S17 to get the most out of the visit I think. Based on landing at 9:30, he should be able to add in lunch with a student, move the tour to 1 and then hopefully get a faculty meeting in there. I spoke with them and they are working on it.
This may sound silly but I am inclined to rent a SUV (or the intermediate ones) for the possibility of bad weather and being in a car that can manage that. Primarily for Erie to Pittsburgh, not sure itās needed Philly to Baltimore. I would love thoughts?
Driving I donāt see us being able to make it there as early.
If we stay downtown in Philly we avoid the turnpike heading to Baltimore, looks like weād only have to deal with it (and tolls) driving from Ursinus to Philly itself?