<p>As many people know, UPenn has the largest undergrad population within the Ivy League. I was wondering whether anyone could comment on the effects of UPenn's size on the academic and social experience. For example, does it lead to a less cohesive student body? Or, does it make classes more competitive? Comments can be positive/negative/neutral</p>
<p>great question. I'd also like to hear what people say.</p>
<ol>
<li>Cornell has the largest undergraduate population in the Ivy League</li>
</ol>
<p>I really can't compare the size of Penn to other colleges because I have only attended one. Penn can be as big or as small as you want to make it. You could come up with a schedule where you take very few large lecture classes. You could also make a schedule where all of your classes are large lectures. Even if you have a large lecture, the largest it will be is 200 people (many capped at 100 or fewer) and many will have recitation sections that are smaller and taught by a TA for more individual instruction. A 200 person lecture is still smaller than lectures at large state schools, and really for an intro economics class or an intro science class do you really need to have a class of 15 people? The whole recitation thing with a TA can have mixed results (usually depending on how well your TA speaks English). </p>
<p>I would say that our student body is fairly cohesive. It's not like a small liberal arts school where you will know everyone in your class and most of the people at the college (that would require you to know well over 2000 people). If you want an environment like a LAC then you should be looking at Dartmouth, Princeton, and maybe Brown. The rest of the Ivies are probably too large.</p>
<p>I would say that Penn is as competitive as you want to make it. Most of the people that I've met are fairly laid back, but will study as much as they need to to get the grades that they want. People will study in groups and help eachother. It's not like some schools where people refuse to help their peers or rip pages out of books in the library. If you want to get a scholarship in the Vagelos program then I would say Penn will be very competitive because you need around a 3.8 while taking Orgo, PChem, Biochem, several levels of Physics, and several levels of math all by the end of your sophomore year. If you are a humanities major in SAS then it shouldn't be so bad. Premed or prelaw will put more emphasis on your grades and you will have to work harder, but that should be true at any school.</p>
<p>All I can personally say is that so far I have really loved my experience at Penn socially, and liked it academically. I'll probably enjoy it more academically when I get out of intro math classes.</p>
<p>Just so you know, Penn doesn't have the largest undergrad population of the Ivies- Cornell obviously does. But that's irrelevant, so moving on...</p>
<p>The best perspective on this would probably be from someone who went to an LAC and Penn. I don't think the size can be classified as a positive or negative quality, it just depends on what you're looking for.</p>
<p>Pros:
-You'll always be able to meet new people, and it's too big for everyone to know everything about you. At the same time, it's small enough that you can easily find a niche without being overwhelmed. I see people I know everywhere I go.
-The size allows more academic programs and student groups than smaller schools. A 1,500-person college couldn't support some of the offerings we have (which is why some students from the Main Line LACs take classes here).<br>
-There is a lot of diversity. I don't even mean this in a racial or religious sense. There's just a wide variety of interests among the student body.</p>
<p>Cons:
-If you want a school where you'll know anyone, you won't get it here. I don't think the size decreases cohesiveness, it's just impossible to know everyone. I guess Penn may be more clique-y than smaller schools. I don't think it's a problem, but I've heard the complaint before.
-Some of your classes will be big lectures, especially in the first year or two. (I put this under con because it's generally considered bad, but I'm actually a fan of big lectures. Most lecturers here are amazing and big classes mean you can skip if you feel like it and don't have to participate as much. You'll usually have recitations anyway.)</p>
<p>I don't think the size causes competitiveness. People here are just driven, which they would also be if it was a small school.</p>
<p>Penn really doesn't feel like a large school to me. I'd consider it to be the same experience size-wise as Princeton or Columbia, two similar schools in size and environment. I contrast it with Ohio State, one of the country's largest schools.</p>
<p>A "large" school generally has a lot of commuter or part time students, and has a pretty high dropout/nongraduation rate. This means that people you meet as a freshman don't graduate with you, and people in your classes don't see you outside of class. That's not an issue at Penn where almost everyone lives on/around campus and almost everyone graduates. Another downside of large schools (and small schools too, for that matter) is unavailable classes either because they fill up or they aren't offered. I think Penn's in the happy medium there, because you can get in to almost every class, and anything you could ever want is offered. </p>
<p>It can seem like a big place at times, but your community tends to focus around your class and maybe the year above and below, because people are always graduating and more are always coming in (true of every school). Most people find some kind of niche and build a community that way, and it works fairly well. The 4 undergraduate schools help out there too - if you're in Wharton, Engineering, or Nursing, you'll develop a sense of camaraderie with your classmates as you endure together. If you're interested in the college, well, I'm sure you'll find someone to skip class with :-)</p>
<p>After 3 years at Penn, I would characterize the competition like this: it's competition with yourself, not really with those around you. For grades, it's kind of an anonymous crowd that you're competing with (because the classes where grades are most curve-sensitive tend to be the largest, like intro classes) and any individual student will work with you because there isn't really any one-on-one competition (obviously a few classes like negotiations are an exception there, but those are few).</p>
<p>Where it can be intense is the competition with yourself: everyone here is an achiever, and everyone wants to do bigger and better things. You have to know when enough's enough, and you have to be able to tune others out sometimes. There's always a friend who is freaked out about law or med school, and if you let their stress affect you, it can feel like a stressful competitive place.</p>
<p>Thanks for all of your comments! sorry about the mixup with Cornell in population size. Concerning competition, I was wondering whether Penn's size makes it harder for undergrads to gain leadership positions, such as those in student government and other extracurriculars? I want to be able to stand out in graduate school admissions by rising to leadership positions in the activities I am passionate about. Also, I was wondering how large the pre-med portion of the student body is. Considering the difficulty in gaining admission into medical school, I'm wondering whether a very large pre-med population will make the process even more intense at Penn.</p>
<p>the premed population is definitely large. there is definitely a lot of anxiety to go around with premeds especially with tough intro bio, math, and chem classes and pretty brutal curves. but i think by soph or junior year, some of those who came in premed may be shifting their sights towards something else that intrigued them. keep in mind that while your gpa may not be as high as if you went to another school, it is Penn and grad schools know that Penn works its science and math students hard. and yes, leadership positions are tougher to get but if you don't let yourself be intimidated (i think i was intimidated my first semester) by Penn's prestige and size, these positions are attainable by your second year, and maybe even by your first. if you're really interested in getting a student government position, you should definitely go for it. but be prepared to work extremely hard campaigning at the beginning of the first semester. you have to ask yourself if campaigning (which means enlisting people to help you who you haven't known for very long at all, chalking up the school, and printing out bunches of flyers) for a position (like UA or Class Board) is really a good way to spend your first few weeks here. if you think it is, then by all means go for it. keep in mind that a lot of leadership positions at clubs and stuff are by applications, which can be time consuming, therefore less people may apply (if it's not a very active club or small membership) so that might be a way of distinguishing yourself.</p>
<p>"I'd consider it to be the same experience size-wise as Princeton or Columbia, two similar schools in size and environment."</p>
<p>I think Penn's size is pretty different from Princton's? like twice as large? and w/ COlumbia's too.</p>
<p>according to our beloved wikipedia</p>
<p>columbia: 6923 undergrads, 15731 postgrads
penn: 9710 undergrads, 10103 postgrads
princeton: 4923 undergrads, 1975 postgrads</p>
<p>i think a penn-columbia comparison is fair, but not with princeton - especially since penn and columbia are both urban, and princeton is furthest from it...</p>
<p>Penn actually seemed incredibly small as a freshman. First there's the fact that our campus is pretty compact, so you pass by a lot of people between classes and just walking around. Then everybody you know seems to somehow know or meet everybody else you know, like you're connected to everyone in your class by no more than three degrees or so.</p>
<p>I kind of like competing against a lot of people I don't know. Even in smaller classes (like, if you're in Wharton, BPUB 250 is broken down into sections of 50-60 people per lecture) the curve applies across all sections, and I love that because then I can never say "I know that's enough to beat my class" because I don't know everyone I'm competing with. That drives me to do the best I possibly can.</p>
<p>oh god...when skimming through this forum, this thread title can easily be perceived as something quite different. lol;</p>
<p>I'm sorry. I have nothing really important to contribute, but did anyone else read 'Penn's' differently in the title? >_<</p>
<p>Lol! Lol! Ll!</p>
<p>HAHAHA. sungchul, i immediately noticed the same thing. you beat me to the post though!
remember, its not the size of penn, its how you use it.</p>
<p>i got it first..</p>
<p>Lol...</p>
<p>I went to a larger university Ivy (Columbia) and a LACy one (Dartmouth). If you're looking for an intimate, community, undergrad focused Ivy I strongly suggest Dartmouth and Princeton over some of the other Ivies. There is much more individual attention. That's not everyone's cup of tea, but I found it much easier to make an impact on campus at Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Everybody knows its not penn's size that matters, it's how you use it.</p>
<p>dartmoose, thanks for writing exactly what i wrote a few posts ago.
props.</p>
<p>some people would prefer penn's big size while others may prefer smaller sizes. I personally like penn's big size, and the surrounding environment. It's alljust so much more exciting.</p>
<p>I'm sorry, I didn't read any of the posts before I posted... you win... your perviness is clearly superior to mine.</p>