Because by the time your daughter attends college she’ll be an adult who has the ability to make decisions over her study habits without other people interfering. Colleges have academic support and tutoring services, but its up to students to effectively take advantage of them.
Elite Admissions:Rejection feels less like turning down a first date than getting left at the altar.
I guess it depends what point we are trying to make.
If the point is that elite schools are more alike than not, I agree. If the goal is a so-called elite education, then the top schools are sort of interchangeable and no one fortunate enough to be accepted to one of these schools is disadvantaged in any way. If the goal is a specific kind of elite education, the schools may not be interchangeable and an individual student may be in some ways disadvantaged if not accepted to a first choice. Some on this board don’t seem to believe certain students are significantly benefited by certain schools. (years and years of MIT threads) I sort of still do. Probably it has to do with what sort of kids we have, what we believe. Since I have very different kinds of kids, including a bloom wherever and a hot house special snowflake, I can believe all kinds of things simultaneously.
For the general well rounded, high achieving student, I agree the education acquired at Cornell or Harvard, and the opportunities post grad, will be the same. Depending on how you define elite education, it may be entirely appropriate to just go down some ranking of schools and apply to a certain number and then add a few safeties. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. It’s just one approach among many.
I shouldn’t have interrupted this thread. sorry.
adding: In my opinion, the LACs are excellent hand holders. They were my first choice for my own kids. Not my kids’ first choice , however. 
so my opinion isn’t based on too much first hand knowledge.
alh: “Since I have very different kinds of kids, including a bloom wherever and a hot house special snowflake, I can believe all kinds of things simultaneously… adding: In my opinion, the LACs are excellent hand holders. They were my first choice for my own kids. Not my kids’ first choice , however.”
Wow, I certainly know that hot house special snowflake child well, and I have no idea how the trek with that one as we walk toward college will be. I love the LACs, as well. Turns out my kids have their own minds. Who knew?
@mathmom: “I do think the worry about fit is a bit silly. My oldest definitely was looking for a nerdy techie atmosphere. He had a hard time turning down Harvard because he spent the entire accepted students weekend playing with that crowd. He didn’t think they were there, but there were plenty of them. In the end it was CMU’s academics that won him over.”
I’m sorry, but doesn’t that response by your son indicate he did not feel there was enough of a fit at Harvard, though you felt otherwise?
Wow, we’re getting into mixed metaphors. Snowflakes don’t last long in hot houses.
No, I think he made the right decision for him too. What he realized is that he could also have been perfectly happy at Harvard. CMU was a better fit, but it wasn’t the only fit. If CMU hadn’t accepted him, I would have encouraged him to consider Harvard over say WPI or RPI. You sure hope there is one place you like best when it comes time to choose one, but that doesn’t mean you can’t be happy in more than one place. Both my kids waited until the last possible day to choose between their two favorite schools - each offered something the other one didn’t. In the end I thought both made their choices for sensible reasons. My CMU kid is at his dream job, so no regrets there.
“You sure hope there is one place you like best when it comes time to choose one, but that doesn’t mean you can’t be happy in more than one place.”
Aah, I certainly believe this. I know that the kids need our support in order to be free to choose. Otherwise they can drape themselves in their parents’ baggage, expectations and bitterness.
Funny, I grew up thinking RPI was the pinnacle of all a serious science student might want, and married a man who did not apply because he knew his Dad would never pay for it. Funny because, while we have not asked, I know that his Dad would help us pay for MIT. Maybe it’s a Grandpa thing.
My sister was a “hothouse special snowflake child”. Definitely every bit as bright as her 2 older brothers, but needing more hand holding and time to develop. Harvard (where my older brother went and was miserable) would have been terrible for her. She started at a LAC, then transferred to Brown. By the time she started her PhD at MIT, she was more than ready for that environment, but she wouldn’t have been as a freshman. She’s had a high successful career since then.
“You sure hope there is one place you like best when it comes time to choose one, but that doesn’t mean you can’t be happy in more than one place.” I certainly believe this, too. While some environments may not be good fits, there are probably many that are, for just about anyone.
I’d never heard of RPI until we lived in NY, but of course it’s a great school. That’s why my son applied. One of my husband’s colleagues attended and he is one of the smartest people I know and multi-talented as well.
I can honestly say that I have never known a student at Brown who wouldn’t have done fine at Harvard. Maybe your sister wasn’t ready for Harvard as a freshman, but then she wasn’t ready for Brown, Yale, Cornell, Stanford, Michigan, or any other college remotely like Harvard, either. It’s not a question of recognizing that she was more a Brown type of girl than a Harvard type. There are real differences between those types, but they are pretty meaningless differences compared to the substantial overlap.
Or maybe, if your sister was ready for Brown and then MIT after a year of an LAC, she might well have surprised you had she gone straight to Harvard or some place like it instead. You wouldn’t be the first older brother to have thought that a younger sister needed more protection and hand-holding than was actually necessary.
I think too many top students overestimate the value of a bachelor’s degree from “elite” colleges.
For full-pay students, is it really worth your while to spend $250,000+ on a bachelor’s degree from one of these schools vs. attending an honors college at a state uni?
Second, I think when universities spam top students with emails encouraging them to apply, they should at least offer to waive the application fee.
If a top college solicits an application from us, then it shouldn’t charge us $75-100 for the privilege to apply - especially when the odds of paying that money and still getting rejected are 90-95% - essentially losing money!
Heck, even casino games in Vegas have better odds than that!
There’s a lot of one-upsmanship at the end of senior year comparing where everyone got accepted to college. Buy once everyone scatters to their respective college, no one cares anymore.
I think there is a huge difference between being on a mass marketing mailing list vs being “solicited” for an application. These are not the same. Some schools send an “easy application” to targeted students and commonly the app fee is waived.
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Plus half of Yale’s students are below average, so that half will have mediocre or low GPAs.
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Guess so…but the young man was under the impression that the school gave something like 70% As. So, he though he could slide. There may be classes where 70% get A’s, but in many classes, particularly the weeder classes, that wouldn’t be so.
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think too many top students overestimate the value of a bachelor’s degree from “elite” colleges
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When so many professions now require an advanced degree, the name of the undergrad becomes less important.
@JHS: Regarding the readiness for Brown before/if not Harvard: I find your comment interesting and thought-provoking, as I look toward the next go round of the college admissions walk in my household and look at the differences between the two student out the door next. While we pegged one student for Brown, that student has decided after three visits and talks with friends and class visits that Brown is simply not the kind of place that might find her thriving. We have asked her to apply to Harvard as a “backup” (joking, folks, joking), but really think she should. Not interested, though we know she fits the profile, and has the work ethic.
The student under her is one we would never steer toward Harvard, for her fiery spirit and will, and love of the communal, almost bohemian-influenced social experience. She loved the feel of Brown, and is a student who wonderfully fits the profile for Brown, but does not seem nearly as fit for Harvard. Without intending to slight, or smear, but knowing that this will, I would best say of this younger student that , to quote Christopher Walken , “[Her] ambition is not greedy.” That feels like the perfect metaphor to me of some distinguishing characteristic of those who merely hunt for the elite, versus look for fit. Again, I’ve got nothing against the student for whom Harvard is the fit, or for whom its cobbled walk is the most natural sandbox in which to play.
Someone needs to distinguish “hand-holding” versus mentoring or other sorts of interaction with faculty that some colleges may offer more of, when it’s sought out. Or schools that are inherently more collaborative than competitive. And not confuse Harvard and Brown on the issue of making sure kids wake up, get to class and get the work done. Neither is for slackers who need the in loco parentis. The schools that offer more babysitting are much, much further down the list.
How nice someone finally mentions lack of greed and an Ivy in the same breath.
@Nerdyparent That is based on the assumption that you are paying full retail. Stats reveal something else all-together-- over half of all admits are getting very significant aid. At 80k and below, you would almost pay nothing at all on tuition, R&B or low 60s. This includes RT airfare, books, computer and other incidentals. The fact is, if you are making 200k plus, the top Ivy schools are probably your best bet. All aid is grant, and no student loans.
To be sure, just to be graduated, it could take more efforts at Yale than at Harvard.(Some may disagree on this. But the fact is nobody knows this for sure. It is all speculations.)
But another spin of this is that, I know that, for some student at Yale, he would rather not graduate and leave from such a place. He had no problem with the idea of sticking around for a few more years if his parents would allow him.
Several other spins of the question:
Is it more difficult to get into its UG school or its grad school (or its prof school)? You could argue the selection criteria is different. But in general, there may still be some difference in the difficulty in getting in.
(This is borrowed from an ongoing thread about Reed):
If the traditional academic merit like GPA/class rank/standardized test scores count only 25% of the admission criteria, will you (as parents or students) be happy about this new way of evaluating the qualification of the incoming students?
Will this kind of shift in the definition of “admission merit” be good for the college? Good for the vibe of the student body in the class once they set foot on campus? As a more concrete example: the debate skills could be valued more than the traditional measure of academic skills like GPA/class rank/standardized test scores. – I got this idea by reading another thread about a debating team in jail beats the team from Harvard. In this criteria, some in the team from the jail has more merit to be admitted into Harvard.
The bottom line: What is the criteria in college admission in terms of how they measure the merit? Is it good for all players to have the criteria to be made very clear and transparent, or it is better to make it somewhat opaque for whatever reason it may be?
(I have a lot of pipe dream this morning. LOL.)
@JHS, we just disagree strongly on this one. Being able to do the work and doing “fine” are two different things, IMO. I older brother graduate magna cum laude from Harvard (physics), and was totally miserable there. It was a negative experience that still affects him. In retrospect, there were a dozen schools that would have been better fits for his personality. Could my sister have “survived” Harvard, as my brother did? Sure. Would it have been a good place for her at that point in her life - she certainly didn’t think so, and she loved Brown. I was 3000 miles away at Stanford, and had no influence whatsoever.
Like @Waiting2exhale, “I’ve got nothing against the student for whom Harvard is the fit, or for whom its cobbled walk is the most natural sandbox in which to play.” But it’s not for everyone, including not all those who are qualified to play there, nor all those who dream of it.
^ Not sure whether this is relevant: I heard G.W. Bush did not particularly enjoy his days at Yale when he was young. What may happen if the UT law school admitted him but Harvard business school rejected him? Will his life be different and will he choose a different set of people who supports him during his presidency – assuming that he would still be our President despite of a different education background. (Probably not, as it seems we have had more Presidents with the legal background than the MBA background in recent decades – unless Carla wins also the next round.)