Elite College Ranking

College Search & Selection
101

<p>columbia,</p>

<p>What is the basis of your speculation? More people in CA have heard of Tufts than people in NE have heard of Northwestern? Are you kidding me? NYC isn't some big farmland, is it? It's a financial center and NU happens to be very strong in business/econ. When I was at Stanford as a grad student, two people in my class went to Northwestern and there's nobody from Tufts! I live in CA and lived in Chicago, no one ever mentioned Tufts. I have never met anyone that went to that school either. In Los Angeles, I'd randomly (I don't know them at the first place) met a few that went to Northwestern because of the entertainment industry (NU has great theater and film programs). </p>

<p>Again, if you look at peer assessment scores again, 4.4 vs 3.7. That's quite a bit of difference, if you ask me because it's more than the difference between NU and Yale. Again, the result is based on surveys filled by people in the academia, not random people running in Central Park or by the Charles River, lol!</p>

102

<p>
[quote]
some of its largest and most active alumni clubs are in LA/SF

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh, NU has a very active alumni club for those working in the entertainment/performing arts industry in NYC!
<a href="http://www.nuea.org/home/index.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nuea.org/home/index.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

103

<p>I don't know about others, but if the USWNR is true, Chicago would change its place dramatically in terms of reputation. GO Maroons!</p>

104

<p>Sam, I don't think athletes' and other special admits' SAT scores are factored into the totals.</p>

<p>Also, I agree with Columbia2007 on just about every point. The people in the Northeast truly are skeptical about colleges in the other parts of the country. A LOT of folks in the Northeast would respect a degree from Bates or Colgate at least as much as one from Berkeley or Duke.</p>

<p>Sam Lee (whom I think is wonderful) and a LOT of other people on this site focus on engineering and business, subjects that lend themselves quantitative analysis. Note how it's mostly budding engineers and businessmen who are in a panic to learn EXACTLY where US News ranked their school in those subjects...as if going to the #4 chemical engineering school is significantly different from going to the #7 chemical engineering school. I didn't see very many people making desperate posts pleading for someone to tell them what the new US News rankings for philosophy and French were. In other words, there are a lot of people who are discussing colleges who aren't relying heavily on small differences in numbers, whether they be SAT scores, the number of recruits by Goldman Sachs, or the % of admits to the top professional schools as defined by the Newark Star-Ledger. And there are a lot people (mostly engineers and business types) who ARE relying heavily on tiny differences in numbers in relevant stats (SATs, for example), or larger differences in numbers in irrelevant stats (alumni giving %, for example).</p>

105

<p>
[quote]
You think Columbia is not a regional school? Do you have any proof? I don't see how Columbia is any less regional than Northwestern.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think it's bi- or tri- regional within the US, if not entirely national (but how many schools even are? As I've said, Stanford does not even garner as much respect in the NE as people on this board would assume...) Columbia also has a tremendous international profile. It's weakest in the Midwest, South and Rocky Mountain West (where athletics usually seem to trump academics as a yardstick of collegiate performance anyway), but otherwise quite solid reputationwise.</p>

<p>TourGuide, everything you said was highly accurate. In some respects, seemingly irrelevant data like founding years and intangibles like atmosphere are more important to Northeasterners than ranking. "Oldness" = prestige more readily than "top ranked business school!" If a school has proven itself for hundreds of years, it will be seen as mattering more than something ranked highly yesterday.</p>

106

<p>“I think it's bi- or tri- regional within the US, if not entirely national (but how many schools even are? As I've said, Stanford does not even garner as much respect in the NE as people on this board would assume...) Columbia also has a tremendous international profile. It's weakest in the Midwest, South and Rocky Mountain West (where athletics usually seem to trump academics as a yardstick of collegiate performance anyway), but otherwise quite solid reputationwise.”</p>

<ul>
<li>I still see no evidence saying that Columbia is any more national than Northwestern, no percentages, no numbers: nothing.</li>
</ul>

<p>“TourGuide, everything you said was highly accurate. In some respects, seemingly irrelevant data like founding years and intangibles like atmosphere are more important to Northeasterners than ranking. "Oldness" = prestige more readily than "top ranked business school!" If a school has proven itself for hundreds of years, it will be seen as mattering more than something ranked highly yesterday.”</p>

<p>I myself am a Northeasterner, and as such, I don’t like being lectured on what Northeasterners care about, especially when, to me, it’s largely untrue. I can go on about why all that “Northeasterners only care about schools in the Northeast” stuff is not universally true, but eh…..</p>

<p>Again, I’ll hold that most schools are more regional, with their fame and student percentages dropping the further away you get from wherein the school lies. </p>

<p>Is Northwestern less known in New England? Most likely it is, but it also has fewer students from that area than most other areas.</p>

<p>For the class of 2009:
43% Midwest
15% West
15% Mid Atlantic
10% South
7% International
5% New England
4% Southwest</p>

107

<p>::In some respects, seemingly irrelevant data like founding years and intangibles like atmosphere are more important to Northeasterners than ranking. "Oldness" = prestige more readily than "top ranked business school!::</p>

<p>Northwestern = founded in 1851
Tufts = founded in 1852</p>

<p>BAM! Guess those Northeasterners (I'm one of them, yikes!) don't know how to count!</p>

108

<p>Again, we see the business/engineering crowd's overreliance on numbers shine through. Note I put "oldness" in quotes. It's largely a matter of perception. "Tufts" sounds like it could be older; Northwestern sounds like Northeastern to a lot of Bostonians, which was founded in the 1940s. The fact that Northeasterners tend to perceive everything more western as younger than east coast institutions is also a factor. People go by their intuition rather than leaping on Wikipedia to discover the exact pedigree of this-or-that school. If they did the latter, William & Mary would be infinitely more popular.</p>

<p>Of course I don't claim such biases obtain for all Northeasterners. My perspective is mainly upper middle class Boston. My claims with regard to "oldness" hold more for two less comparable institutions, i.e. Amherst and Davidson or Grinnell. </p>

<p>For what it's worth, here are Tufts statistics for the class of 2009:</p>

<p>Class size overall: 1,350</p>

<p>Alabama (1), Alaska (2), Arizona (4), California (105), Colorado (13), Connecticut (97), Delaware (3), DC (6), Florida (39), Georgia (5), Hawaii (3), Idaho (1), Illinois (33), Indiana (4), Iowa (2), Kansas (1), Kentucky (3), Louisiana (5), Maine (16), Maryland (45), Massachusetts (308), Michigan (8), Minnesota (10), Missouri (10), Montana (3), New Hampshire (29), New Jersey (106), New Mexico (4), New York (209), Nevada (5), North Carolina (9), Ohio (13), Oklahoma (5), Oregon (11), Pennsylvania (46), Puerto Rico (2), Rhode Island (8), South Carolina (4), South Dakota (1), Tennessee (11), Texas (35), Utah (2), Vermont (13), Virginia (18), Washington (17), Wisconsin (4)</p>

<p>Canada (15), Hong Kong (13), Korea (12), Japan (9), United Arab Emirates (9), United Kingdom (9)</p>

<p>133/1350 or 10% of Tufts students come from the three west coast states alone; adding other "western" states would allow that number to equal or surpass Northwestern's percentage. At the same time, the percentage from the six New England states is 35%, or a lower regional selection than Northwestern's 43% Midwest, though you could argue the Midwest is much larger. </p>

<p>Based on these statistics, the schools seem relatively equal. Of course, they measure yield more than anything; we have no indications from these of where students applied from or where people are more aware of their respective students/alumni.</p>

109

<p>Disclaimer: kk and I aren't even talking about difference in terms of quality of education. We didn't/don't go there; we have no way to tell anyway. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The people in the Northeast truly are skeptical about colleges in the other parts of the country. A LOT of folks in the Northeast would respect a degree from Bates or Colgate at least as much as one from Berkeley or Duke.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>As I said earlier, I don't care what average people think. I am sure if I go down to south central and ask around tomorrow, I'd find that many of them would know USC but not Yale/Princeton! LOL! </p>

<p>But please don't tell me recruiters for banks in NYC/Boston don't know Northwestern when the school is known to be one of the handful target schools for top consulting and IB firms!
Another list: <a href="http://www.lazard.com/careers/FA-NA-UG.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lazard.com/careers/FA-NA-UG.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>According to Peterson's "440 Colleges for Top Students", 624 organizations came to Northwestern's campus to recruit last year whereas the number for Tufts was 211. </p>

<p>Even the WSJ feeder schools ranking is so heavily biased toward east coast school (biased because 13 of their 15 professional programs (to be fed) are located in the NE), Northwestern is still ranked higher than Tufts. Just go to show those that matter aren't "so skeptical" about NU.</p>

110

<p>-My numbers are probably a little off, but here are the rough percentages for Tufts:</p>

<p>New England: 34%
Mid Atlantic: 31%
Mid West: 6%
Southwest: 5%
South: 7%
West: 11%</p>

<p>-65% of students in Tufts are from the Northeast, whereas only 43% of students in Northwestern are from the Midwest.</p>

111

<p>columbia2007,</p>

<p>What exactly is your point of listing geographical distribution? Let me tell you this: Stanford has 40% from California. </p>

<p>Well, perhaps you should go back to US News peer assessment ranking (what people in the know think, not what you or what you think what others think..lol): Northwestern 4.4 (same as Brown/Dartmouth), Tufts 3.7 (same as Ohio State/Maryland/UC Davis; wow..either Northeasterners are <em>that</em> provincial like you claim or you are the one living in your own little bubble and your opinion is nothing more than just your own). For your reference, your school got 4.6. So if you think they are about the same, I guess Tufts and Columbia are also pretty similar. ;)</p>

112

<p>Northwestern is > Tufts. But it's not by a country mile or anything. It's not like Northwestern is like a rabid Mike Tyson about to tear a new a-hole into Screech from Saved by the Bell.</p>

113

<p>Great visual, Prestige...much more memorable than my "Oklahoma State/Harvard" simile. Some people here make the Northwestern/Tufts matchup look like it's a sexual encounter between Michael Clark Duncan and Mary-Kate Olsen (sans the KY jelly).</p>

<p>I still support Columbia's comments, especially the first paragraph of post #108. </p>

<p>Another generalized Northeasterner's bias is against state schools (because theirs are usually playing 4th fiddle to the private schools in their states). Also, in many respects "smaller is better"...or at least BIG=LESS EXCLUSIVE. The larger colleges in Boston are BU and Northeastern. It's inconceivable to a lot of people around there that a Colby or a Smith wouldn't smoke a Berkeley or a Michigan for undergrad, due to size, if nothing else. I'd bet most people in the Northeast would overestimate the size of Nortwestern because it's in the Big 10, and it sounds like their big, relatively (compared to Harvard/MIT/Wellesley) mediocre-ish Northeastern U.</p>

114

<p>Also, Tufts/Northwestern seems about like Willian & Mary/U of Virginia. UVa probably wins most of the quantitative battles (except, SATs, as with Tufts/NU). But they are a lot closer on general prestige and quality of education (remember that?). It's not like someone who got into both would need his head examined if he picked W & M.</p>

115

<p>
[quote]
Some people here make the Northwestern/Tufts matchup look like it's a sexual encounter between Michael Clark Duncan and Mary-Kate Olsen (sans the KY jelly).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>lol...I don't think anyone here is doing that. I don't think Columbia/Tufts matchup looks like that either.</p>

116

<p>“ But they are a lot closer on general prestige and quality of education (remember that?)." </p>

<p>-Any proof other than your saying that they are closer on general prestige? I’m sure you have none, and I can see this is going nowhere. So all I’ll say is: Northwestern is better than Tufts in pretty much every quantitative regard. Either show me something, some list, ranking, something proving otherwise, or be quiet.</p>

117

<p>KK, you're proving my point re the strict reliance on numbers and rankings. Try to write a couple paragraphs about college quality or selection without mentioning this ranking or that stat. Your grasp of the non-quantitative is so weak that you don't even pick up on the "er" in "closer." I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how this alleged difference in quality would manifest itself. Fill in the blank: "Northwestern is better than Tufts because its graduates in the same fields can generally do these things __________________better than Tufts grads.</p>

118

<p>Tourguide, numbers and rankings are probably the most important thing on this board...everything else is just opinion and most people only have strong opinions favoring their own school</p>

119

<p>You make picking a college sound like picking a mutual fund. There are a lot of intangibles that don't lend themselves to objective quantitative analysis...campus beauty, architecture, student-faculty interaction, openness of class discussion, national name recognition, political climate, seriousness of students, surrounding neighborhood, ease of access to nearby cities, campus morale and spirit, etc. And I'm still waiting for someone to fill in that blank in post #117 for me.</p>

120

<p>“Im still waiting for someone to tell me how this alleged difference in quality would manifest itself. Fill in the blank: "Northwestern is better than Tufts because its graduates in the same fields can generally do these things __________________better than Tufts grads.”</p>

<p>-How about take the LSAT:</p>

<p>Avg. NU: 161
Avg Tufts: 158 </p>

<p>Not good enough? Ok, how about go to:</p>

<p>Harvard Law: NU 22, Tufts 9
Yale Law: NU 9, Tufts 2 </p>

<p>Still not enough? What about the entirely East coast- Biased WSJ feeder school rankings: </p>

<p>NU 21, Tufts 45</p>

<p>-So, to answer your question, if a grad wants to say, take the LSAT, or go to medical school at Columbia; Harvard; Johns Hopkins; the University of California, San Francisco; or Yale, or go to business school at Chicago; Dartmouth Harvard; MIT; or Penn, or Law school at Chicago; Columbia; Harvard; Michigan; or Yale, (again, a list that favors the east coast) a graduate has a better chance if he attended Northwestern. </p>

<p>Wait, wait. Not enough???? How about being recruited by top consulting firms:</p>

<p>Number of times each school is listed as a “core school” for top firms on Vault's top 6 firms:</p>

<p>NU: 4/6
Tufts: 0/6</p>

<p>"You make picking a college sound like picking a mutual fund. There are a lot of intangibles that don't lend themselves to objective quantitative analysis...campus beauty, architecture, student-faculty interaction, openness of class discussion, national name recognition, political climate, seriousness of students, surrounding neighborhood, ease of access to nearby cities, campus morale and spirit, etc. And I'm still waiting for someone to fill in that blank in post #117 for me."</p>

<p>-I’m sure you’ll come back preaching your “intangibles”, but how about for once you produce come tangibles. I don’t care about the architecture at the respective schools, or the perceived political climates, or perceived campus morale- such things are purely subjective, and talking about them will get nowhere. Provide some sort of objective criteria, something that can be compared between the two schools....</p>