<p>Tourguide,</p>
<p>Do you think Brown/Tufts are pretty close too? How about Columbia/Tufts? If your answer is yes, then I have no problem with you thinking Northwestern/Tufts are similar. :)</p>
<p>Wow, talk about getting slam dunked. How can I argue with a whopping 3-point difference in the LSAT? And beating a university that doesn't even have a business school in being recruited by "top firms" is pretty impressive. Do you think the fact that they don't have a business school might mean that they don't attract students who are overly interested in business? The WSJ ranking makes anybody who ever even walked by a stats class in session cringe in embarrassment. Do you think measurements of sheer numbers might be tilted in Northwestern's favor because it's a larger school?</p>
<p>WSJ rankings aren't that bad - it uses 15 professioanl schools, almost all Northeast, that are considered the best. I think it gauges entrance into them over a 5 year period to show consistency. I'd assume schools who get students into the top 5 law schools or biz schools would also get a similar number into the rest of the top 20 law or biz schools. </p>
<p>KKs point was that even though NU is out of the Northeast, its students go to the elite Northeast schools at a higher rate than Tufts.</p>
<p>In case you wanted to see if it was actually proportions, I don't think the results of it are any different than any one would expect:
<a href="http://www.collegejournal.com/special/top50feeder.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegejournal.com/special/top50feeder.pdf</a></p>
<p>Tourguide,</p>
<p>Do you think Brown/Tufts are pretty close too? How about Columbia/Tufts? If your answer is yes, then I have no problem with you thinking Northwestern/Tufts are similar. :) What I don't like is someone like columbia2007 who talks about how Columbia is so known on both coast (really? I live in CA, I think USC/UCLA are much more known here) and then puts up bs like "Tufts is more known in CA than Northwestern in the Northest" when most rankings put Columbia vs Northwestern closer (including reputation) than Northwestern vs Tufts. It's like saying, "they are close but my school is <em>just</em> better".</p>
<p>By the way, actually the WSJ ranking may favor smaller (AND eastern) schools since the numbers are normalized by student population. But I do agree WSJ has a lot of flaws and one of them is the bias towards eastern schools. :)</p>
<p>“Wow, talk about getting slam dunked. How can I argue with a whopping 3-point difference in the LSAT? And beating a university that doesn't even have a business school in being recruited by "top firms" is pretty impressive. Do you think the fact that they don't have a business school might mean that they don't attract students who are overly interested in business? The WSJ ranking makes anybody who ever even walked by a stats class in session cringe in embarrassment. Do you think measurements of sheer numbers might be tilted in Northwestern's favor because it's a larger school?”</p>
<p>-That same 3 point LSAT difference is the difference between the University of Dallas and Tufts, but I guess there’s not difference there either…..</p>
<p>-As for Tufts not having a business school, those numbers are for undergraduate recruitment, and seeing how Northwestern does not have an undergraduate business school either, that argument is moot.</p>
<p>-In the law school admissions numbers (the pure numbers), Northwestern and Tufts are about the same size. In the WSJ survey, the numbers are already normalized by population. The students in the arts and sciences colleges are more likely to attend law school than those in the other schools in the universities. </p>
<p>Classes of 2009:
NU CAS: 1056
Tufts: LAC: 1160</p>
<p>Thus, Northwestern is not any bigger than Tufts in that regard…. By the way, I’m still waiting on some numbers….</p>
<p>Tufts has 1160? </p>
<p>Its a chubby LAC lol</p>
<p>I think Williams and Amherst only have 500 / year</p>
<p>Here's the bottom line:</p>
<p>1) Tufts has increased significantly in selectivity
2) It is still less selective than Northwestern, but only slightly
3) The reputation of Tufts has not caught up with the selectivity</p>
<p>Tourguide,
You were saying some northeasterners think Northwestern is big and not exclusive because of association with Big10. Then I guess athletics doesn't aid Northwestern as you said earlier. :) By the way, the athletes' SAT scores are factored in the total. That's why schools like Stanford/Duke/Northwestern consistently have less % of students in the top-tenth than other non-Div-1 peers.</p>
<p>Man, when did this thread morph into NWU Wildcats vs. Tufts Jumbos WWF Smackdown?</p>
<p>The distance between the two - regardless of who is ahead - is just not that great folks. At the end of the day, these are two great schools in their own right that probably don't get the attention (respect) that they deserve - which is likely the root source of the angst on both sides of the argument.</p>
<p>Either way, they can both take comfort in the fact that they aren't even the best schools that noone has ever heard of - those honors still belong to the top LACs.</p>
<p>kk, if the only people who applied to law school were people who majored in Arts and Sciences, your last comparison would be meaningful. Since anybody can apply to law school...</p>
<p>Stats that suggest Tufts and Northwestern are in the same league: LSATs, SATs (remember, I'm NOT claiming Tufts is "better"...I think it's ridiculous to split hairs regarding colleges at this general level; I'm just saying if there is a difference, it ain't much...I don't know what illustration I can give you of what I think the the situation ISN'T that is more vivid than the Duncan/Olsen coupling).</p>
<p>Are you positive the "top firm" recruiting at Northwestern concerns only undergrads? How do the two compare on recruiting for international relations and the like?</p>
<p>Discussing recruitment is very tricky - many listings of top Ibanks or Conulting companies don't specificy if they are going to a universities MBA program or undergrad and for what positions.</p>
<p>For example, UT Austin is one of the hottest recruitment sites for Goldman Sachs IT staff but not for Ibanking, which is what most students at elite schools want to go into if they would want to work at Goldman Sachs.</p>
<p>Also, if a small boutigue farm like Lazarus doesn't recruit at your school, you can still apply for a job and your chances of getting that job aren't lowered by much (as long as your school has a good name in the business world).</p>
<p>Thus, specific stats about recruitment into top corporations is tricky - I think its best to keep such measures confined to discussing feeding into professional schools which can be measured decisively.</p>
<p>"not even the best schools nobody has ever heard of"...they are also not even the best schools in their own metropolitan areas. </p>
<p>Sam, if you say the athletes SATs are included, I'll believe you. Athletics aids NU in "fame" and name recognition nationwide. But we we weren't discussing nationwide fame, we were discussing how NU is perceived in the Northeast. There are some, especially in New England, to whom the large school/Big 10/ Div I/ jock status and confusion with Northeastern U might work against it for undergrad. I went to high school (Franklin) and undergrad (NOT Tufts) in the Boston area, and from what I saw, Columbia is right about NU being almost invisible around there. The confusion with Northeastern U. is devastating to it's rep in the Boston area. I also lived in the Chicago a couple different times, and for what it's worth, I think few people there ever even heard of Northeastern, but if they did, their perception of it is probably BETTER than it warrants because of the name similarity with Northwestern.</p>
<p>Since I have zero connection with Tufts and actually like Northwestern, I'm all talked out on this topic. I just jumped into the fray because I bristle at people throwing around stats like they are the word of God, and I also bristle when I see people choosing a college more like it's a mutual fund than like it's a girlfriend ("I like Sue better than Mary, but Sue is a 34C and Mary is a 34D, so I'd be an idiot not to go for Mary").</p>
<p>“Are y“Are you positive the "top firm" recruiting at Northwestern concerns only undergrads? How do the two compare on recruiting for international relations and the like”</p>
<p>-Well, the name of the survey is called: “Undergraduate Recruiting at Vault's Top Six Consulting Firms”……</p>
<p>“they are also not even the best schools in their own metropolitan areas.”</p>
<p>-Nope, they sure are not. </p>
<p>As for the whole NorthEastern/NorthWestern name confusion, that seems overblown to me. And even if there were some sort of grand confusion, how long would it really take to be cleared up…. There is a Columbia college in Chicago, and I’m willing to bet that more people in the area have heard of that than the Columbia in New York ….. I’ve always maintained, and still maintain, that most schools are regional, Tufts and NU are no different. What I won’t allow, however, is for people to make baseless claims about national prestige and academic strength.</p>
<p>At any rate, I think this convo is over....</p>
<p>This entire debate must end - now. Top students wouldn't apply to Tufts unless it was considered a top school, and no noe is questioning Northwestern's reputation. Give it a rest, everyone. Now.</p>
<p>If you won't allow people to make baseless claims about prestige, you are going to be a very busy man on collegeconfidential. Good luck. And I hope Northwestern does well at the Beanpot this year.</p>
<p>TourGuide,</p>
<p>Columibia said "Northeast", not Boston. NYC is much bigger than Boston, which isn't representative of the NE (I'd heard Bostonians like to think their tiny little city is the center of universe). By the way, I went to high school in Williamstown, MA. It's a tiny boarding school and I was one of the very few that didn't pick LACs. My teachers warned about Northwestern's greek scene. So they know quite a bit about the school. I know a family in Needham and when they knew I transferred from WashU to Northwestern, they referred to it as "great school", instead of "oh..you are coming to Northeastern?". So please don't give me bs about how it's "so invisible". Those in the know are the ones that matter. You mean people in Boston don't ever read US News ranking which had put NU in the top-25 for like two decades? You mean those that hang out at Harvard Square are that ignorant? </p>
<p>Let me quote what columbia2007 wrote:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think both Tufts and NW are highly regional schools. But I think more people in Chcago or California have heard of/highly consider Tufts than people in the Northeast with regards to Northwestern.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Then he went on to say Columbia is well-known on both coast. In other words, he's saying NU is highly regional and very close to Tufts but Columbia is much more national than NU (and Tufts) even those peer assessment scores (reputation) show 0.7 point difference between NU and Tufts but only 0.2 difference between NU and Columbia (note the 3x difference). So you have problem with me and kk saying NU has better reputation than Tufts but not with columbia2007 saying Columbia is much better known than NU (and Tufts)???</p>
<p>I live in CA and what columbia2007 said isn't what I'd experienced. But anyone with some common sense would know columbia2007's statement is likely incorrect without even living in CA. CA is known for entertainment and high tech and Tufts isn't particularly known for either whereas NYC is financial hub/cultural center and NU has great programs in econ/theater/film. Isn't that alone should tell you NU should be more known there than Tufts in CA? Again, if you agree that Columbia and Tufts are pretty close, I think I wouldn't mind you saying Tufts/NWU are pretty similar.</p>
<p>You really don't have to agree with everthing columbia2007 said. lol!</p>
<p>
[quote]
And I hope Northwestern does well at the Beanpot this year.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>LOL... that's just mean.</p>
<p>Columbia2007 is an incredible prestige whore, just like the_prestige, if you have read any of the comments from either poster</p>
<p>Harvard/Princeton
Yale/Stanford
MIT
Columbia/Cornell
UPenn
Dartmouth/Duke
Brown
Caltech/ Berkeley
JHU
WUSTL
Northwestern
Chicago</p>
<p>ny</p>
<p>Sam, how dare you disobey Worldband's edict that we should blow out the flame on this topic?</p>
<p>But since you asked...there IS a Northwestern/Northeastern problem there...maybe not among elite prep school teachers or well-educated suburbanites. But I lived in grubby-but-somewhat-academically ambitious town, there was plenty of confusion.</p>
<p>The exact phrase is Boston is the "HUB of the Universe," not the "center" of the universe. It also calls itself the "Athens of America." Which should give you an idea about why people around there aren't really impressed with some college in the hinterlands hopping up the US News rankings.</p>
<p>When your friends in Needham said "good school," they were probably referring to Northwestern's famous co-op program.</p>