@Zinhead , this was in response to Pizza’s post #491:
I guess “intellectual elite” is anyone who does not work in IB.
Well, that’s a non-sequitur. I didn’t say “anyone who doesn’t work in IB is not a member of the intellectual elite.”
I find the world of people who value elite schools only for money-making possibilities, and/or who would see an elite student becoming a teacher/pastor/social worker/whatever as a “failure” because it’s all about the Benjamins, to be unimpressive and un-intellectual. And no one I or my kids need to spend a moment worrying about impressing.
You are so off base I’m starting to wonder if you’re even a parent.
What an obnoxious and condescending assumption. Guess what?? Some kids go to an elite school with the goal of becoming a Master of the Universe only to discover (thanks to that excellent education) that they are not suited for that life at all. It has nothing to do with GPA. And thank God for that.
Being elite intellectually would start with understanding that Ramanujan was a clerk and Hemingway an ambulance driver … at first.
FWIW I considered becoming a teacher when I left the service, but couldn’t stomach the thought of being tied up with the NEA. “2 kind words to you” sums up my thinking at the time.
I’m not sure I’d consider firefighter jobs to be “easy money” when one accounts for the great risks and requirements(physical fitness among them).
Incidentally, I just found out that one of the firefighters involved in evacuating the Twin Towers on 9/11 and died as a result was an NYFD Lieutenant and alum from my public magnet who opted to become a firefighter rather than pursue the more common path of many HS alums of elite/respectable college and careers in engineer/computer tech, doctor, lawyer, wall street finance/ibanking, corporate management, etc.
I’ve heard similar throwaway remarks about unionized sanitation workers or construction workers in my area who do make a seemingly high wage. However, one also has to keep in mind is the physical toll and dangers inherent in taking on such jobs is such it isn’t unheard of for workers to take retirement or end up on disability as early as their mid-thirties.
Incidentally, I know a few unionized construction workers in their mid-20s who are in/starting college to transition out because they’re already starting to feel the physical tolls of the job on their bodies and don’t want to end up on disability like many colleagues just a decade or sometimes less older than them.
And some who ended up taking a “Master of the universe” type job at first like a topflight HS and college classmate STEM major found it was a highly remunerative, but distracting detour from her actual passion of making a difference by teaching in the K-12 classroom. She’s now in her 12th year of teaching math at a well-respected Brooklyn public high school.
I’m not sure it’s possible to “fall into teaching” without specifically majoring in education and/or getting a masters, but perhaps that’s not universally true. In districts I’m familiar with there are hoops to jump through if you didn’t major in education, and yet more for everyone - get a master’s by X years after college graduation.
I’ll also say that I know many educators who were teachers first then moved into and upwards within administration or related for- and non-profit groups, and are very well paid.
There are special fellowship programs offered in some states/school districts for students/professionals who didn’t major in Education or get an M.Ed to get certified expeditiously and then get their M.Eds to maintain compliance within a certain number of years(~5 years after initial hire).
Several NYC and Boston area folks I know…including an older relative took that path to get certified and later get their M.Eds.
And getting back to Elite/Ivy grads and greater earnings and firefighters, I recalled reading in the Harvard Crimson or some other Harvard publication that one recent graduating Harvard College graduate opted to work as a firefighter for a small-town fire department. Reported starting salary in the early-mid-'00s…$25k.
Yep it’s NYC schools I was thinking of, @cobrat . You can’t just fall into a teaching job with a bachelor’s in something else.
With the NYC Teaching Fellows program and some other similar programs in the Boston area I knew of…while you can’t fall into it…it’s very easy for anyone who is interested without an undergrad Ed major or M.Ed in hand to start K-12 teaching assuming no substantial issues(i.e. felony convictions).
Most of the people I knew who participated and became K-12 teachers in those two metropolitan areas didn’t major in Ed in undergrad. Heck, my LAC doesn’t have an undergrad Ed major and its brief attempt to run an M.Ed program only lasted a few years before being shut down because of financial/sustainable interest issues.
@LucieTheLakie @cobrat @OHMomof2 I didn’t ‘pick on’ HS teachers but rather used it as a shorthand for the non usual suspects of super competitive high paying jobs… But I can see how it could be read. Sorry for the offense.
ucb and cobrat there is no bigger legal scam these days than the income of state workers. I’m amazed otherwise intelligent people are not aware of this massive theft that is destroying virtually every city and state right in front of your eyes. Take a look through this list and then tell me how it can possibly be paid for in the long run.
http://data.sanjoseca.gov/dataviews/225564/employee-compensation-2015/
Re: http://data.sanjoseca.gov/dataviews/225564/employee-compensation-2015/
Yes, there are some on the first pages who earn a large cash compensation. But that is based on working very large amounts of overtime. Note that the base pay levels (without overtime) are largely in the range of what you apparently considered an unlivable pay level some posts back.
What is your recommendation? Pay police officers and fire fighters less (possibly compromising the quality of recruits)? Hire more to reduce overtime needs? Or just reduce hours (so fewer police officers on the street and investigating crimes and fire fighters ready to respond to calls)?
Um, I think discussion of alternate pay structures for police officers and fire fighters is just a tad off topic as to whether elite schools are “worth it.”
Let’s please not get into a discussion of the relative honor of private vs. public sector jobs. If you want to blame teachers and social workers for the financial ills of society, we’ll also have to hold judges and district attorneys and doctors in VA hospitals in contempt. Police and firefighters, too, I would guess.
On one hand, Say would like us to believe that teachers, who are responsible for the education of our children, are overpaid (“legal scam” in fact). On the other hand, he contends that aspiring to be a teacher would be “disappointing” for someone with an elite education because the field doesn’t pay enough. Someone who truly values education at all levels would see the inherent contradiction in those two statements.
ubc it involves virtually every worker. There are 50 workers per page and on the 25th page the total compensation was 132k. In truth these tables vastly underestimate the true compensation because it does not factor in 25-35 years of pensions after the age of 50. Once you factor in the cost of the pensions to come the average income of every single cop and fireman approaches 200k and huge numbers do much much better. In 2016 a fireman without four year college degree will in his lifetime out earn the average family doctor and lawyer who have had nearly a decade of rigorous education past HS. Please take the time to look through the table carefully and then go to SF and every other city where it’s the same. Ellie no one is blaming the workers but rather just pointing out why educated parents mostly want their children to aim for relatively high paying jobs. This is a fact and not exactly controversial. The reason it’s relevant is because for the first time in history were have the strange situation where public safety workers will on average out earn the graduates of the top 20 universities. So I don’t think it’s surprising that educated successful parents would hope that after paying the tuition so the their children can attend the top 20 schools that after it’s done they would end up with jobs at least equal in pay to public safety jobs that don’t require college degrees.
Sweetie. I’m a “highly educated successful elite parent,” as is my spouse. Lots of our friends in our social circle are as well! And guess what? Some of us (myself included) sent our kids to elites … others didn’t. We all said congratulations to one another regardless of where our kids were going, and we meant it, because we’re not the kinds of jerks who judge people based on where they send their kids.
As well, some of our collective kids went for the big-shot, high paying jobs …and some didn’t. It’s all good. Really. It’s not a competition. I don’t need to feed my ego by comparing what my kid makes to what your kid makes.
I suspect you’re not a parent, and I suspect you haven’t really had any life lessons, because anyone who has any broader sense of what’s important in life knows that what you want for your children is to be happy, healthy, self-sufficient … and what the specific profession is, is of little or no importance. As someone said upthread, “disappointment” would be if your kid winds up selling drugs, or playing video games in the basement at the age of 40. Becoming a high school teacher (or whatever), doing any honorable job and doing it well and with pride, hardly falls under “disappointment.” At all.
Isn’t it a simple matter of wisely stewarding one’s resources and abilities? If a particular job requires A,B, C skills and qualifications, but you happen to possess A,B, C, D,E,F, G, H skills and qualifications, then working at that ABC job may not be the best use of your gifts if a job more suited to your abilities is available. It’s wonderful if a talented person works at a summer YMCA camp teaching drama to second graders. But if s/he is capable of starring at the city’s playhouse or on Broadway, then wouldn’t that make more sense? Barring family and health factors, the sort of ambitious people who attend elite schools usually want to do the most they can with their skills.
By that argument, the HS and undergrad classmate friend who left a high paying job in Corporate America to become a math teacher at a respectable Brooklyn public HS should have stayed in her corporate job.
Or a HS classmate who earned a BS/MS in CS from CMU who quit a technical supervisory position at Google to pursue being a full-time indie rock musician should have stayed at Google.
Neither of them would have agreed. And both…especially the ex-Google supervisor friend still regularly receive calls from their former supervisors/colleagues to come back and work for them. Neither of them have any interest in doing so despite their academic “gifts”.
No, if he has the talent to earn a decent living as a musician but only plays for the dog in the garage, then the same rule applies.
There are 157 pages. Yes, 25th page from the top (top 16%) is at $132,496.67. But the 25th page from the bottom (bottom 16%) tops out at $7,791.68. The median San Jose city employee which should be on page 79 is at around $65,000.
Why do you have such disdain for public safety jobs that require considerable skill (education/training/practice that is different from that which one does studying for a bachelor’s degree), willingness to take risks to help others, and willingness to work unusual hours, holidays, and overtime when everyone else is off work? If you think such jobs are such “easy money” (even though the pay levels are what you apparently consider to be marginal or too low to live on), why not encourage your kids and others to go into those jobs?