<p>I dont really want to start an argument, but yes you're right that there are going to be some kids that don't take college seriously, but when you're looking at students at institutions we're talking about here, the exception is certainly not the rule. And of course there are going to be more articles published by Harvard or another reserach U than Williams or any other LAC, what we're discussing is the opportunity for undergrads to be published. At these research institutions, the graduates and professors are being published, and it is very hard for a undergrad to do so. And with regard to your last statement - thats pretty much irrelevant. Why would someone choose a college that is less suited for them on the off chance that they have the same exact credentials as someone else. And if they would have done better elsewhere - their credentials would have been better anyway. But I do see what you're saying - obviously a research university has vaster resources because of its greater size and endowment, but again - its usually very hard for an undergrad to take full advantage of these resources.</p>
<p>""If you need to be led by the hand to the opportunities that exist then you need to be at a LAC certainly not at Harvard where the students are expected to be mature and capable of taking the initiative themselves."</p>
<p>Hahaha what a joke. There is no doubt that some, actually most of the students at Harvard are absolutly brilliant, and totally deserve to be there. But you cannot deny for a second(and if you do, you are blind), that Harvard doesn't have its fair share of kids who are there because of there parents. It's the simple truth. It's obviously a personal preferance based on the student, so there is no right or wrong answer, but to say students who attend the elite LACs are every bit as mature and self-sufficient as a kid who attends Harvard or Yale. And there is also no doubt that you can get great connections from HYPS for grad schools, but frankly, if the connections you make or the prestige of the school is what is guiding you, then I think your priorities are severely skewed. Maybe it's a novel concept, but I want to learn at college, not simply be well connected.</p>
<p>also
""Im sure cornells SAT averages are higher than carletons right? No ones talking about how carleton sucks..mhmm..."</p>
<p>according to usnwr: cornell 1290-1480
carleton 1320-1500"</p>
<p>Hahaha, go Knights!!</p>
<p>MtLO7 - You're completely wrong. I've have seen this issue from all sides. I'm a Ph.D. physicist at a highly regarded masters granting LAC. My Ph.D. is from a research university and my undergraduate education was at a top 15 LAC. There is a huge difference between a LAC and a research university in terms of opportunities for undergraduate research in science for sure. Not only that, but generally the requirements for graduating with a major in the field is less stringent at a LAC than at a research university. - less courses are required because more liberal arts courses are needed for graduation. Ph.D. faculty oriented towards research prefer to work in a Ph.D. granting university specifically because they can focus on it and have students focused on research. Bringing up Harvard as an example again - they can't find enough undergraduate students to fill the research opportunities - my daughter gave up one to go for another that she was more interested in.</p>
<p>Spaceball519 - I can see you are clearly a student and not particulary cognizant of how the real world works - connections are every bit as important as what you know.</p>
<p>Well, depends if you are a a whore for cash I suppose. If all you want in life is money/connections to get you higher in the world, than so be it, but again, maybe I'm just crazy, but I don't care all that much about which big shot jackass likes me. As it stands now, I have every intetion of attending one of the best LAC's in the country, volunteer for Teach for America, then getting a masters in teaching, and becoming a high school teacher in my hometown. Now if that seems like a lowly career to someone from Harvard who is making millions on Wall Street, then so be it. Maybe I'll go back to school and get a Ph.D. and become a college professor, but that is not a pressing issue for me, not in the least. </p>
<p>You can call me young, naive, unworldy, etc, but I never want to be in a place where the only reason I succeed is because of a higher up putting in a good word for me.</p>
<p>In Connecticut. My statement in regards to connections isn't just for university positions, it is applicable in other employment situations. I was also in high tech for 30 years. The last company I was with - in the semiconductor industry - hired an MIT graduate so fast, it made everybody's head spin - based entirely on the fact he graduated from there.</p>
<p>I'd continue the argument, but its really apples and oranges. I would love to see some facts rather than heresay on the percentages of students doing faculty research as undergrads (and perhaps freshman?) at LACs vs Universities.</p>
<p>The fact that faculty is more engaged in research at a Ph.D. granting university and is pushed to get outside grants to support it gives more opportunities for research. I stand by my original statement in regards to initiative. It may require "more balls" to pursue it at a university because there is much more intense competition. </p>
<p>As I mentioned, again referring to Harvard, there are students already beyond undergraduate level courses in their fields who are taking graduate level courses. Others, such as the 4 other students sharing a suite with my daughter are only 1 - 2 years away from this situation. My daughter went to a school that didn't have all that much opportunity so she only had things like AP physics, chemistry, biology, calculus, and the various English and history courses. Others have taken far beyond these standard courses and would very quickly exceed the courses provided at a LAC.</p>
<p>MtLO7 - I'm sure the data exists. For a sanity check - how many Intel or Siemens award winners chose a LAC over a research institution?</p>
<p>Hey, a first-class ticket to the top tier of the American higher ed system is going to cost a family the same at just about any university or LAC. So if you have a kid who, at 18, is a highly directed student in pursuit of a very specific research goal why not shoot for Harvard or Stanford? Of course you'll find a higher proportion of super-accomplished scientists and scholars in the faculty there.</p>
<p>The truth is, though, that the majority of the best and brightest of this generation aren't ready to pick such a research goal. That group of young Americans needs to prepare for jobs and fields that don't even exist yet, and they need to be made ready for a global economy where the rules will be changing fast throughout their careers, even faster than we, their parents, have seen. Many of these kids will benefit from the emphasis on critical thought and breadth of knowledge provided by a liberal arts education. I've encouraged my S to apply to LACs, and to spend some time on their Web sites looking for evidence that their professors are not only well-credentialed but also creative and nimble. Those are the tools he is going to need from them.</p>
<p>DocT, again, I am interested more in the average person - not someone who has already basically completed an undergraduate education during high school, or someone who is rediculously intellegent and has won Siemens or Intel - these people are far and few between. Of course these people will pick a place with more resources because they will be open to them as they are much more advanced than your typical freshman. I am just looking for some data that can put the VIABLE research opportunities in perspective. </p>
<p>And yes, I agree with what you said froshdad.</p>
<p>Froshdad - I probably agree with you on most of the points that you are making. Personally, I was at a disadvantage attending a university after a LAC from the standpoint of my career choice. However, I did appreciate the general education that I received that a lot of others didn't receive. This is also why a lot of research institutions have included more required courses such as religion, philosophy etc. Perhaps a LAC is better for a student who hasn't decided the direction they want to pursue, however the Harvard , Stanford etc names do open a lot of doors in things like business even when the student has majored in a science.</p>
<p>MtLO7 - you'd be surprised at how many ridiculously intelligent people there are at Harvard, Stanford etc. The cases that I described are not few and far between. Also from the science standpoint, I would probably send my kid to a decent state school (with a good graduate school) above a LAC if they know that they want to pursue science or engineering.</p>
<p>at my tiny LAC, anyone who wanted to do research with a professor was able to. including freshmen in a 101 class. compare that 101 class, with maybe 70 people in it, to the same 101 class at a large university, where there are 3000 people in that class (such as at my friend's school). where do you think you will have a better chance to be involved on a close level with a prof? and at my large university grad school, you had undergraduates who applied to do research with my professors, but my professors HAD to take their grad students over undergrads, because thats why we were there, to do research.</p>
<p>Spaceball519 - My wife is a teacher in an inner city school in Connecticut and I can assure you that connections play a significant role there also - even for $35000 positions. A number of years ago, the state of Connecticut took over the city, the CEA (teacher's union) on their web page (and it is still there) told applicants not to go to the city because of the unfair labor practices going on. When teachers retired to keep their benefits that were going to be axed - new applicants were standing in lines wrapping around the buildings several times. Guess which ones got jobs?? My wife has been applying for an administrative position for 5 years. Guess why she hasn't gotten one yet?? Its because she didn't grow up in that city and doesn't have the connections to get the position. It is amazing for a city of over 100,000 people, how many of the teachers and administrators know or grew up with each other. Don't be foolish to think that connections are only applicable to jobs for cash whores. It also seems a bit foolish to spend a ton of cash to go to a high price LAC or Harvard etc where you don't get certified to teach in that state when you can go to a state university and receive that certification. Going to Amherst or Central Connecticut State University is irrelevant to getting a public school position so why waste the money?</p>
<p>doct- i TOTALLY agree with you about your last post. i dont understand why people who want to teach will spend $200,000 for a private school education, when they can go to the state school where they want to teach, pay a fraction of the cost, and get the same job.
i'm also from connecticut, and i know exactly what you are talking about in regards to the politics of hiring teachers.</p>
<p>Going to Amherst or Central Connecticut State University is irrelevant to getting a public school position so why waste the money?</p>
<p>Why do people pay 100 times the money for "real" jewelry than they would have paid for "fake"?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Going to Amherst or Central Connecticut State University is irrelevant to getting a public school position so why waste the money?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Then why would anyone want to go to a private school? I go to a private school in which I am almost paying full price, and could have gone to other schools for very little or possibly for nothing at all, however they are not nearly the same caliber as the school I attend. You don't go to a good school for a diploma; you go for an experience. Some of my friends go to public schools that don't have the prestige as my school and they aren't having a great time, I love school so much and I know that when I graduate it will be the saddest day of my life. It is about getting a wonderful experience and putting yourself in a rigorous acadmic environment. At school I know people who want to do everything from being a lawyer to being a teacher. That is a horrible attitude to have that in the end other people will control what you are doing. I hardly think I am wasting money, instead I am gaining experience and meeting people and having a great time--something money can not necessarily buy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So if you have a kid who, at 18, is a highly directed student in pursuit of a very specific research goal why not shoot for Harvard or Stanford?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Since any "research goal" career path involves a PhD or equivalent research/academic degree, this list might be a reason to pick one of the top LACs (noted in bold):</p>
<p>**Percentage of graduates receiving a doctorate degree.<br>
Academic field: ALL</p>
<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database<br>
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database** </p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period<br>
Note: Includes all NSF doctoral degrees inc. PhD, Divinity, etc., but not M.D. or Law.</p>
<p>
1 35.8% California Institute of Technology<br>
2 ** 24.7% Harvey Mudd College **
3 ** 21.1% Swarthmore College **
4 ** 19.9% Reed College **
5 18.3% Massachusetts Institute of Technology<br>
6 ** 16.8% Carleton College **
7 ** 15.8% Bryn Mawr College **
8 ** 15.7% Oberlin College **
9 15.3% University of Chicago<br>
10 14.5% Yale University
11 14.3% Princeton University<br>
12 14.3% Harvard University<br>
13 ** 14.1% Grinnell College **
14 ** 13.8% Haverford College **
15 ** 13.8% Pomona College **
16 13.1% Rice University
17 ** 12.7% Williams College **
18 ** 12.4% Amherst College **
19 11.4% Stanford University
20 ** 11.3% Kalamazoo College **
21 ** 11.0% Wesleyan University **
22 ** 10.6% St John's College (both campus) **
23 10.6% Brown University<br>
24 ** 10.4% Wellesley College **
25 ** 10.0% Earlham College **
26 ** 9.6% Beloit College **
27 ** 9.5% Lawrence University **
28 ** 9.3% Macalester College **
29 9.0% Cornell University, All Campuses<br>
30 ** 9.0% Bowdoin College **
31 ** 8.9% Mount Holyoke College **
32 ** 8.9% Smith College **
33 ** 8.8% Vassar College **
34 8.7% Case Western Reserve University
35 8.7% Johns Hopkins University<br>
36 ** 8.7% St Olaf College **
37 ** 8.7% Hendrix College **
38 ** 8.6% Hampshire College **
39 8.5% Trinity University<br>
40 ** 8.5% Knox College **
41 8.5% Duke University
42 ** 8.4% Occidental College **
43 8.3% University of Rochester
44 ** 8.3% College of Wooster **
45 ** 8.3% Barnard College **
46 ** 8.2% Bennington College **
47 8.1% Columbia University in the City of New York
48 ** 8.0% Whitman College **
49 7.9% University of California-Berkeley<br>
50 7.9% College of William and Mary
51 7.8% Carnegie Mellon University<br>
52 7.8% New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology<br>
53 7.7% Brandeis University
54 7.6% Dartmouth College<br>
55 ** 7.5% Wabash College **
56 ** 7.5% Bates College **
57 ** 7.5% Davidson College **
58 7.2% Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute<br>
59 ** 7.2% Franklin and Marshall College **
60 7.1% Fisk University
</p>