<p>
</p>
<p>Small nit, but I think it’s ~50% are either premed and/or prebiz (according to Emory career services). Emory is definitely known for strong sciences (and thus attractive to premeds), but not even Hopkins is 50% incoming Frosh.</p>
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</p>
<p>Really? Do you have any links that you can share? (It was my impression that Brown had the highest mean graduating senior gpa at 3.6.)</p>
<p>Here’s something I believe isn’t being considered:</p>
<p>Emory has an unconventional 2 year business program (Goizueta) ranked consistently in the top 10 in undergraduate business by Business Week (I think they were 4th last year). Those interested must apply to Emory College as an undergraduate then apply to the business program in their sophomore year. From the BBA program released statistics (from business week linked below), 98% of graduates seeking jobs received job offers within 3 months with a median salary of $55,000 and signing bonus of $6,000 coming right out of college.</p>
<p>Now applicants matriculate into the business school sophomore/junior year with 3.6 GPAs (higher, emory average gpa ~3.3). I know countless bright pre-meds who decided to go business; with a $55,000+/year starting salary plus raises/promotions over four years plus accrued interest, then adding the cost of a top med school ~$50,000/year over four years plus accrued interest you’re looking at a difference of about $500,000 difference between a successful pre-med vs. a successful business 4 years out of college.</p>
<p>I have several friends in Emory Goizeuta business school who’s gotten job offers from top finance companies (JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs etc.) who can expect to make $120,000+/year in 3 years (if they have average performance at those companies) and out earn most doctors in 5 years. Or, I can go pre-med and not expect to come out of debt till my 30s, and by the time I start earning as a competitive MD salary, those who went business may be considering retirement.</p>
<p>Faced with those numbers, I can say that the best and brightest admitted to Emory don’t go pre-med, as do many other schools. Strictly looking at earning potential, dumping pre-med and going business is a no brainer at Emory. Only those dedicated to practicing medicine strictly for patient experience (or those who didnt get into the business program) strive to go to medical school.</p>
<p>You’re not seeing as many high MCATs (as competitively ranked universities) because many of smartest are going into Emory’s business school. You’re seeing many low MCAT scores because Emory’s pre-med committee doesn’t discourage applicants as evidenced by the 100 emory pre meds with <3.3 GPA taking MCATs and applying to med school.</p>
<p><a href=“http://career.emory.edu/parents/pdf/Applicants_Emory_2008_Matrix.pdf[/url]”>http://career.emory.edu/parents/pdf/Applicants_Emory_2008_Matrix.pdf</a>
[Goizueta</a> Business School - Recruit at Goizueta](<a href=“http://www.goizueta.emory.edu/careermanagement/Recruit/bba_statistics.html]Goizueta”>http://www.goizueta.emory.edu/careermanagement/Recruit/bba_statistics.html)
[url=<a href=“Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Businessweek - Bloomberg]Emory</a> University: Undergraduate Profile ? BusinessWeek<a href=“search” title=“graduate compensation”>/url</a></p>
<p>@bluebayou</p>
<p>sorry, dont know how to quote, so this will have to do.</p>
<p>For Upenn, unfortunately I dont have stats, just anecdotal evidence; my friend graduated as class of 2007 and was telling me about how his 3.7 GPA wasn’t that impressive considering the average was 3.6.</p>
<p>EDIT: sorry, misread your post, revised.</p>
<p>Again, Dave, that’s just not a unique aspect to Emory. The top Harvard, Yale, Duke, WUSTL grads have their pick of private sector jobs.</p>
<p>@bluedevilmike</p>
<p>Not as many as Emory having 1/4 of its class going business (317/1,265) and 98% getting $52,000 median salaries. Having seen application process, only the brightest of those already at Emory get into Emory business (Goizeuta). </p>
<p>You asked why Emory has disproportionately low MCAT scores as compared to the caliber of undergraduates from entrance statistics of comparable universities; it’s because a quarter of the brightest are going into Emory’s top 10 ranking business school.</p>
<p>Again, I tell you that this is simply not a unique element of Emory. Goldman, JP Morgan, McKinsey, Bain, and other business-sector employers snag huge proportions of the top students at most other top-tier Universities.</p>
<p>Easily 25% of any other university goes into a private sector, non-professional-school situation. A lot more, probably.</p>
<p>So, again, the question still remains.</p>
<p>@bluedevilmike</p>
<p>I believe you’re response is dismissive or just ignores my point in the previous post concerning Emory’s business program. I am not arguing nor pointing out whether or not 25% of top university graduates receive private sector jobs as your response implies.</p>
<p>As previously stated, Emory’s undergraduate business program (reasoning detailed in previous post) is top caliber right behind that of cornell, MIT, UPenn, and ahead of that of Wash U’s. </p>
<p>Having spent 3 years at Emory, my point is that I have seen many incredibly bright freshman pre-meds (the missing bunch of high MCAT scores), who start out pre-med but then switch after seeing the sideshow the business school puts out of their graduate’s salaries ($50,000+) in conjunction with the debt they know pre-meds face. Had they been in other universities, these bright pre-med students aren’t given the option of a top 10 business school and achieve those high MCAT scores.</p>
<p>To be concise, and to repeat my point: I see plenty of incredibly bright freshman who are pre-med, who would have gotten those 36+ MCAT scores, lured away by the business school’s promise of $120,000+ salaries in three years and a debt free graduation.</p>
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</p>
<p>And once again I tell you that this is true of every major national university. The fact that Harvard, Yale, etc. don’t have official “business schools” doesn’t mean that their top talent isn’t getting poached by investment banks and consulting firms.</p>
<p>dave, I think you are justifiably proud of your soon to be alma mater , but I agree with bdm that your discussion of the b-school does little to nothing explain the lower than expected med school admissions stats at Emory.</p>
<p>BTW, I can’t imagine many dedicated pre-meds being pulled away by the starting salaries you suggest anymore than they’d be pulled away by starting salaries for engineering grads. OTOH, many pre-meds DO see the sacrifices as unappealing when other alternatives are presented that have more immediate gratification and less pain, but that happens everywhere. </p>
<p>The idea that top talent anywhere would be so easily dissuaded , if true at Emory or anywhere, is just…sad. And FWIW I don’t believe the top med school talent is dissuaded. More than likely it’s the more marginal candidates, or those whose motivation for medicine was primarily financial .</p>
<p>@bluedevilmike
quote–
“And once again I tell you that this is true of every major national university. The fact that Harvard, Yale, etc. don’t have official “business schools” doesn’t mean that their top talent isn’t getting poached by investment banks and consulting firms.”</p>
<p>Please dont say “this is true of every major national university” and use Havard and Yale as examples. Having considered a career in business and spoken to some who work on wall street, I can definitely say the top financial institutions only recruit talent from top econ/math majors from ivies or finance majors from top business schools (Emory). Ive never heard of JP Morgan holding undergraduate recruitment sessions at comparably ranked schools (JHU, Duke, Rice, Vanderbilt) but they come to Emory every year.</p>
<p>I’m saying we’re not comparing apples to apples when you look at statistics from other schools. Emory’s known for having a selective business program, attracting some top pre-business talent. Suppose Emory’s freshman average SAT is x and the business school takes the better 25% student body, then the average SAT for non-business majors (the statistic used when comparing with other schools) can be much lower than x.</p>
<p>With that in mind, call it what you will, but we’re left with 900 of the “dumber” non business undergraduates with average SAT lower than x. Now certainly we can’t assume all the top talent at Emory goes business, but my point is that there are fewer, thereby accounting for the lower number of 36+ (96+ percentile) MCAT scores.</p>
<p>Now that certainly doesnt mean Emory’s pre-med program doesnt prepare its candidates, looking at ratio of med school matriculants over class size:</p>
<p>Duke (only school I could quickly find stats on; would be curious to see others)
218 admitted to med school of ~1,600 student body graduating from college
218/1,600 = 13.6%</p>
<p>Emory
(entering class ~ 1200)
(business school graduates = 300)</p>
<p>159 admitted to med school out of 900 (1200-300) graduating from college
159/900= 17.7%</p>
<p>Emory has ~90% med school acceptance (slight variations by year) for those with 3.5+ GPA and 30+ MCATs, which I think is quite reasonable. Emory’s complete lack of discouragement for those with low numbers lead to its overall low entrance stats (60+ with 3.1 or lower GPA applied).</p>
<p>I am certainly proud of Emory, but I find it’s just so misrepresented in this thread. I’ve have found great research opportunities (2 publications from research in my freshman and sophomore years). The pre-med classes have been great and I’m expecting a 35+ MCAT score (taking in a month). Emory’s a great place to thrive if you have the brains and put in the effort.</p>
<p>I’m not familiar with Hopkins, Rice, or Vanderbilt, but I can tell you that JP Morgan has a VERY active recruitment presence at Duke and would be surprised if they didn’t recruit at all at the other three.</p>
<p>As I specifically pointed out (e.g. criticized my own previous posts), the 218 number is out of date. You can see the new applicant totals here:
<a href=“http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table2-7-mwhite-web.pdf[/url]”>http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table2-7-mwhite-web.pdf</a></p>
<p>@ bluedevil mike</p>
<p>I apologize for the mistake; I could not find the information myself.</p>
<p>As for the site you specified, I do not believe that data is correct-- it is a total number of applicants. The 218 is what I understand to be successful applicants.</p>
<p>According to your graph, Emory has 310 applicants, one third of its 900 college class (business majors taken out). I’m pretty sure Emory’s not putting one third of its college class into med school.</p>
<p>It is a total number of applicants. But Duke does a lot better than 65%, and so the 218 figure (again, a now-outdated or perhaps always-incomplete figure I introduced, for which I apologize) must be incomplete somehow.</p>
<p>Since Emory applicants get in at a 50-60% clip, the 310 applicants are probably around 170 admits.</p>
<p>Let’s suppose 80% of Duke’s applicants matriculate ~310 and 170 admits from emory (as bluedevilmike suggests).</p>
<p>Duke’s graduating class (1600) from college of arts and sciences is much larger than that of emory’s (900, with 300 business majors to account for 1200 total students).</p>
<p>Duke’s
310/1600 =19.4%</p>
<p>Emory’s
170/900 = 18.9%</p>
<p>I dont see the huge differences people describe. As for a fewer number of “spectacular” MCAT scores, please take into account Emory’s smaller size and my previous post concerning top talent going to Emory’s business school. Of the top talent who do come to Emory for pre med, they are getting good scores.</p>
<p>It is interesting to see that some schools do produce more applicants (in term of percentage) than other schools:</p>
<p>JHU: 323
Emory: 310 (~1200 per class)
Harvard: 300 (much bigger school. Is it ~1600?)
Stanford: 273 (much bigger school. Is it ~1600?)
Yale: 206 (~1300 per class)</p>
<p>Although all these privates are “preprofessional factories”, it appears that some are more “premed factory” than others. That is, their affiliated medical schools have more “drawing power.”</p>
<p>Should Rice and BCM be merged, Rice may become even more a “premed factory.”</p>
<p>It is rumored that the reason why many universities establish a professional school (esp. law, medical, or business school) under their wing is that it can help boost the prestige of their whole school, especially their undergraduate college – it is there they really gets the “financial rewards.” The medical school as a “business” is really not an extremely profitable money earning machine.</p>
<p>I speculate that if a school attracts too many premeds and does not weed out enough, the admission rate will be lower by necessity. This is just my very crude theory, which may not be true. Is it possible that the admission rate for Duke students is lower in recent years is due to the fact that many aspiring premeds notice that Duke provides a very good environment for premeds and flock there in recent years? (That is, they are hurt by their good reputation.)</p>
<p>BTW, Dave, thanks for providing us your inputs/voices from the other side of the fence.</p>
<p>Dave, you persist in failing to realize that there are just as many pre-business-track (and pre-law track, and pre-everything else track) students at every other school as there are at Emory. It is not as if Duke’s entire 1600 student body is interested in medicine just because they aren’t officially in a business school.</p>
<p>Seriously.</p>
<p>"Dave, you persist in failing to realize that there are just as many pre-business-track (and pre-law track, and pre-everything else track) students at every other school as there are at Emory. It is not as if Duke’s entire 1600 student body is interested in medicine just because they aren’t officially in a business school.</p>
<p>Seriously. "</p>
<p>Really? Really? I going to try to be even more clear: compare student bodies of those in college of arts and sciences. Emory admits 1,200 undergraduates, but 300 of those leave the college of arts junior year to complete a 2 year program to from goizeuta school of business. That leaves 900 of those 1,200 who intend on pursuing a degree from the college of arts and sciences.</p>
<p>You wouldn’t add Cornell’s School of Industrial Labor Relations to arrive at the total student body as the divisor for its liberal arts majors just as you wouldn’t count those in Emory’s Goizueta School of Business (300 students).</p>
<p>I stand by my previous numbers from numbers of successful med school applicants you’ve dictated :</p>
<p>Duke’s
310/1600 =19.4%</p>
<p>Emory’s (using the 900 from college of arts and sciences, not 300 from Goizueta school of Business)
170/900 = 18.9%</p>
<p>In direct response to your comment “It is not as if Duke’s entire 1600 student body is interested in medicine just because they aren’t officially in a business school,” you again misconstrue what I’ve said. I have never advanced the position of Duke’s 1600 student body is interested in medicine; neither are the 900 Emory graduates from its college of arts and sciences. Either you’ve repeatedly (as evidenced by several previous posts) misunderstand my main point, or you purposefully advance these straw man arguments.</p>
<p>My point is that there is no large achievement gap as you previously describe; both universities are sending about a fifth of their graduating class from their respective colleges of arts and sciences to medical school. Please provide evidence as to otherwise instead of making sweeping generalizations or attacks of an argument I never made.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Of course you would, if Duke’s CAS included the kids who wanted to go into … well, whatever it is that ILR kids go into.</p>
<p>Duke’s CAS, like many others, does include the kids who want to go into business sectors – in other words, Duke’s CAS effectively includes Duke’s business school. Therefore it’s silly to exclude Emory’s actual business school.</p>
<p>Dave:</p>
<p>With all due respect, you might want to revisit your stats-- and include the 350+ Frosh attending Oxford-Emory, the vast majority of whom graduate from Emory-Atl, and some even matriculate to the biz school. Note, that the Oxford matriculants have much, much lower stats: ACT 27, SAT = 1160-1330. </p>
<p>Further, according to IPEDS, 1513 students graduated from a combined Emory last year (or the year before), of which 258 were in biz. Deducting ~100 students in nursing, and 1513-358 = 1155 in liberal arts…down to ~14%…</p>
<p>Carry on!</p>
<p>"Of course you would, if Duke’s CAS included the kids who wanted to go into … well, whatever it is that ILR kids go into.</p>
<p>Duke’s CAS, like many others, does include the kids who want to go into business sectors – in other words, Duke’s CAS effectively includes Duke’s business school. Therefore it’s silly to exclude Emory’s actual business school."</p>
<p>First off, you fail to recognize Emory’s CAS also has econ/math majors going into business, so yes, the number of 900 liberal arts degrees is comparable to that of Duke’s and those from other liberal arts colleges.</p>
<p>Second, I cannot see the logic in including Cornell’s Schools of Industrial Labor Relations, Hospitality, or Engineering because Duke has kids who may one day be a hotel manager/engineer. </p>
<p>According to your insistence we include all undergraduates (even those architecture majors, who I dont think have much interest in medicine), Cornell’s class of 2013 is 3,221, but can only expect ~400 successful pre-med applicants for ~12% of the student body.</p>
<p>I find this kind of math irresponsible, similar to what wall street calls “creative accounting” or what the justice systems calls fraud. There is no reason to consider the Hospitality program at Cornell in our discussion of pre med programs, nor is it logical to penalize Cornell for having such a program, just as Emory has a separate business college. Your insistence on including the entire undergraduate population only advances the position of Duke’s standings at the cost of factual analysis.</p>
<p>Again my point: I find it unreasonable to penalize Emory for 1,200 undergraduates admitted when 300 of them will not graduate with a liberal arts degree but rather sought out Emory for its business program. Again, please compare apples to apples: Emory has ~900 graduating seniors in the college of arts and sciences (including those majoring in economics or math to pursue business careers). Smaller student pool = proportionately fewer successful med school applications.</p>