<p>I really don’t understand the point of the argument going on here. Rather than trying to analyze/explain statistics and get into silly arguments with complete strangers over the internet, I’ll just say a few words about my own experience at Emory.<br>
I absolutely, positively LOVE Emory, and I think it is a fantastic place to get a pre-medical education. From the supportive professors and collaborative studying environment to the abundant research/volunteer opportunities and the great new pre-health mentoring office, I can’t think of a single thing to complain about. I’m only a sophomore, but I know quite a few seniors who are currently applying to medical school, and I can tell you that if you work hard and do well at Emory, you will have tremendous success if and when you choose to apply to medical school. I know many applicants who scored VERY well on the MCAT and were admitted to top med schools extremely early in the application season.<br>
In summary: Don’t read too much into statistics. In the end, the individual is all that matters. There are many colleges and universities in this country that are great places to get a pre-medical education, and based on my experience and the experiences of many of my peers, I can say with confidence that Emory is one of them.</p>
<p>@bluebayou</p>
<p>you make a great point about oxford; indeed I forgot to include these students. You are right, these students do have lower SATs and GPAs going in (Oxford is known as Emory’s backdoor), and matriculate into Emory’s general population, adding ~160? to Emory’s class. I will have to say that from a pure number stand point, those from Oxford are not as “competitive” on paper as those from Emory. </p>
<p>I’m trying to address concerns why a school like Emory whose entrance SATs and GPAs are pretty competitive churn out disproportionately few successful pre med applicants. I’ve contended that many of the smartest who are bringing up these statistics end up at Emory’s prestigious business school, accounting for the supposed achievement gap of high entrance SATs vs. not so many High MCATs. </p>
<p>Another side to my argument is the exclusion of those who do not graduate from the college of arts and sciences from calculations and should be considered as a separate pool who entered Emory’s business school from the freshman year.</p>
<p>As for everything else, I’ve been using numbers for class of 2011 (my class). 1,216 undergraduates admitted and 317 in business.</p>
<p>I’ve cited these links in a previous post, but here they are again:
BBA class of 2011
[Goizueta</a> Business School - Undergraduate BBA](<a href=“http://www.goizueta.emory.edu/degree/undergra_factsFigures.html]Goizueta”>http://www.goizueta.emory.edu/degree/undergra_factsFigures.html)</p>
<p>Undergrduate admit 2011
[Class</a> of 2011 sets record for being most diverse, international in Emory’s history](<a href=“http://www.emory.edu/EMORY_REPORT/erarchive/2007/August/August%2027/Class2011.htm]Class”>Class of 2011 sets record for being most diverse, international in Emory’s history)</p>
<p>Let me try a clarification:</p>
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</p>
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</p>
<p>Uhh, no. I did the math already. Oxford has about ~750 students, in two classes. Thus, ~375 per class.</p>
<p>[Oxford</a> College - A Distinctive Place](<a href=“http://oxford.emory.edu/a_distinctive_place/]Oxford”>About Oxford College | Emory University | Atlanta GA)</p>
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</p>
<p>I hope you have yet to take a Stats class. :)</p>
<p>My point is the denominator is NOT your entering Frosh colleagues but your graduating colleagues. There are NOT 1216 total graduates, but 1500+ bcos of the Oxford factor. (1200 Frosh at Emory main campus in Atlanta plus the 300+ who mosey on over from Oxford as Juniors.)</p>
<p>btw: the links that you provided do not demonstrate that Goizueta siphons off the best and the brightest. The b-school link shows a mean SAT score of 1371. The total undergrad link shows a mean gpa of ~1385. </p>
<p>bdm: Cornell’s ILR school graduates typically go onto careers in Labor/HR or Law – it’s a big law feeder.</p>
<p>
This was a point I was raising. Even more than that, I just can’t imagine that b-school anywhere siphons off the best and brightest pre-meds (such that what is left is those that will perform less well on the MCAT). That seems very counter-intuitive to me.</p>
<p>@bluebayou</p>
<p>First off, thank you for providing numbers instead of generalizations/ speculation.</p>
<p>I’m sorry to have misread your 300+; I thought you were indicating all of oxford has 300+ students over 2 classes. </p>
<p>I am admittedly shocked that there are so many; I knew about Oxford, but did not think a quarter of the graduating class came from Oxford. You are quite correct these 300+ have lower GPAs and SATs going into freshman year and eventually matriculate into the general Emory population.</p>
<p>Now I dont want to make sweeping generalizations and say all Oxford graduates will not do well, but I dont find it unreasonable to say that they as a group can be expected to produce lower scores just as a lower ranked university (lower SATs, GPAs) can be expected to produce fewer successful medical school applicants as a whole.</p>
<p>I still firmly believe the undergraduate business school should not be part of the pre med analysis. All said and done, perhaps we can expect Oxford continuees to balance out those leaving to get a BBA, leaving Emory with 1200 graduates from the college of arts and sciences, but a quarter of whom (300) have lower stats on paper. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, Emory does not recognize Oxford graduates any differently than Emory ones (this I’ve inquired about), so we cannot obtain the relevant data.</p>
<p>@curmudgeon
yes, bluebayou brings up a great point; something I overlooked earlier. You are quite correct in that their SAT scores dont indicate such, but all I can say is I know quite a few very talented students (and am good friends with 2, one of whom I roomed with last year,) who started out pre med and switched to business. These, had they continued with pre med, would have achieved some of the missing MCATs. </p>
<p>I must add the disclaimer this is anecdotal evidence and as such, only represent what I see happening at Emory.</p>
<p>Now, I’m not saying this doesnt happen at other schools (ahem, as I’m sure of I will be accused of), it’s just that the Goizeuta business school (from its rankings) has a disproportionate draw of the talent pool at Emory.</p>
<p>And in response to concerns to student motivations for becoming a doctor, I would say that one would be surprised at how many get into medicine not for intrinsic motivations and for not just the money (which is trending down, I believe), but title/prestige/class status. The general perception is that these students would never make it, but I think there are those who became doctors whose prime motivation was the ego boost of being “head of surgery,” rather than the “doing good.” Perhaps for those, maybe “chief financial officer,” and a few million bucks is persuasion enough to get out of medicine.</p>
<p>My only data driven response is that those getting into the business school junior year have 3.6 GPAs vs. Emory’s average 3.3 GPA (the business school does dole out proportionate rejections to those with low GPAs).</p>
<p>My intention to respond on this forum has never been to flame anyone but to provide a different point of view from threads I read earlier (which seemed more or less to be a few people making speculations from the outside based on number manipulation). I’m trying to offer a point of view of what I see happening while taking consideration the quarter business crowd and now, the other quarter Oxford crowd. </p>
<p>I am of the personal opinion Emory is too supportive of its pre meds and is not asking those making Cs in pre med classes (and boosting their eventual GPAs with fluff classes) to consider other career paths. I think we can agree too many under qualified (<3.2 GPA etc.) insist on applying.</p>
<p>I’m tired of those same people drawing conclusions that Emory has a weak pre med program, when I feel the pre med classes, internships, volunteer, and (best of all) research opportunities is outstanding (most every I know pre med has research experience). Keep in mind Emory is also a business driven school, which may cast some shadows.</p>
<p>@bluedevilmike
I am weary of your insistence to include non-liberal arts majors in our discussion of pre meds. I’m sure cornell’s college of arts and sciences has pre-law english/poli sci majors as does Duke’s, but that is still no argument to include ILR or for that matter business graduates.</p>
<p>dave:</p>
<p>you write represent your school well and will be a welcome addition to the alumni community. </p>
<p>I think most of us agree that Emory’s science and premed program is really strong and therefore I find Emory’s results surprising. And props to Emory for publishing the acceptance matrix. I’ve asked a couple of schools for something similar – we all know that they have it – and they looked at me like I was inquiring about new TSA security codes for airports.</p>
<p>I see your point about ignoring Goizeta in the denominator, but you might as well deduct the nursing school too. Of course, then it gets down to the philosophical point on where do you draw the line? And how? Every college reports differently and is comprised of different colleges/schools/disciplines. Emory has undergrad biz and nursing. Hopkins had undergrad engineering – sure some engineers go to med school, but not many. Obviously, Cornell’s Hotel school sends few, if any, to med schools (or law for that matter)…but the only true data across colleges that we have is total graduates and total med admissions. Thus, I tend towards bdm’s view of the denominator.</p>
<p>@ Dave:</p>
<p>I know that JP Morgan definitely recruits at Rice as well as many other companies.</p>
<p>Also, the posted reasons for Emory having such a small acceptance rate is due to their lower MCAT scores which I have heard is due to the premed classes. While the classes there are hard, it is because the actual exams are hard and do not prepare students well for the MCAT. I only know this from talking to a few of my friends there last year when I decided against applying to Emory. Also, I do not believe that it is good to have a sub-par advising committee that is not honest with students about their chances of admissions or at least pointing them toward schools where they are most likely to get into. Another thing is that I would never want to go to a school where half of the class wanted to be doctors while the other half wanted to enter business.</p>
<p>“btw: the links that you provided do not demonstrate that Goizueta siphons off the best and the brightest. The b-school link shows a mean SAT score of 1371. The total undergrad link shows a mean gpa of ~1385.”</p>
<p>I think this really nullifies the argument that the B-school siphons off talent from the pool of potential pre-med students as the difference is less than 2%. While students in Emory’s B-school are bright people, I do not know many people who initially came to Emory for pre-med, was doing very well in the core classes the first few semesters and then suddenly decided to pursue a BBA. In fact, when I was visiting the school during my senior year in high school, I recall a girl in the B-school talking about how she started out pre-med, wasn’t particularly that excited by the sciences, and decided to apply to the B-school.
Some people who don’t do well in science classes will figure out after the first 2 semesters that science is not really their thing and choose a different path. However, this doesn’t always seem to be the case at Emory with so many applicants each year despite their lack of adequate grades. As previously stated, pre-med classes are no walks in the park and do require you to be interested in the topics. I don’t think one could do well in classes Ochem if he/she did not find the material to be at least a bit interesting. Thus, I find it hard to believe how anyone who has absolutely no interest in the medical or science related field can do extremely well in the courses to only give up the credits and decide to pursue a BBA.</p>
<p>
I think you may have just described most top private colleges here…especially if you also add prelaw students there 
Go to a state school and you will likely not find such a high concentration of career-oriented pre-professional students.</p>
<p>I also notice that, among the “good” students, more male students than female students would choose the business track, for whatever reason it may be – This is especially true when the economy is good. I also heard that the prestige of the college you go to is most useful when you are into business (e.g., i-banking, finance, consulting). For premed, it is not that useful — unless your goal is to get into the very top/academic medical schools. I do not know how true it is though as this is just hearsay.</p>
<p>@ dave:</p>
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</p>
<p>^ Yet you want to make the generalization that only Emory’s best and brightest go into business? I find it insulting when you say that only the best and brightest of Emory students go into business (you are pretty much saying that the non-business kids at Emory are ■■■■■■■). I scored in the top 25 percentile of Emory’s Sat Score range and I am pre-med, and not aiming for a BBA degree. Your entire argument is flawed because you are assuming that the smartest kids at Emory (because we have a great business school) would automatically go into the BBA program. Your viewpoint is biased because you are a business major.</p>
<p>also being in the B-school doesn’t necessarily exclude you from being pre-med. it’s totally do-able…</p>
<p>To mcat2:
I do not think Rice is like that at all. While I do have a few friends who are premed, the majority are majoring in other things like psychology, art history, some sort of engineering, and then there are lots of musie’s and archi’s as well. While Rice does send a lot of kids of medical school, there are a wide variety of students here and I really appreciate the diversity. I’m okay with career oriented and preprofessional as long as everyone isnt out trying to pursue the same profession</p>