<p>I always thought I probably babied my kids a bit much, but they were always independent in their studies. (working on learning laundry skills with junior S now) I had dinner with a friend yesterday and we were discussing cheating in class and how our kids complain about it. She went on that a D of her friend/neighbor used to cheat and sometimes have her Mom do her essays if she was "busy" or having problems. She ended up at her state college and she STILL sends work home via email and brings home papers on some weekends for her to look over (mom is public school teacher) She said the mom knows it's wrong, but she started the pattern and doesn't want her to fail. It will inevitably end up costing her more $ in the long run if she has to repeat class's, etc. I realize she has to take quizzes and tests at school on her own, but I wondered if this was a rare case.</p>
<p>My husband's college roommate often sent home his rough drafts for his mother to edit and type back in the 70's.....she did some re-writing as well. He would express mail them. I had never heard of anyone doing that before and was amazed at the time. As my daughter went through high school I realized that a surprising number of parents are overly involved in their children's work. There is a fine line with parental involvement. Your friend's daughter is cheating and your friend is helping her.</p>
<p>At the college level I have no doubt that some students are still sending papers home for a bit more than the occasional read-over. The internet makes it so easy....and some parents are so afraid that their child won't do well. At some point the work will need to be at a level that the parent can't help. What then?</p>
<p>What then? I guess they'll have to bring their moms/dads to work with them:)</p>
<p>I can see wanting to read your children's papers in elementary & middle school & maybe ask them questions about something, but in high school - ridiculous. I gave my kids the foundation, but honestly any parent of a high schooler that does this is HURTING their child. At some point down the line the kid (when everyone is congratulating them on their grades, etc.) will have to feel like crap about themselves. </p>
<p>College level - Words just can't describe what I think about it.</p>
<p>I hate to be the bearer of bad news...I work in an elementary school. You would be surprised at the number of parents who DO the homework (even at this level) for their children. It gets worse as the kids get older and folks are trying to "out do" the next family on things like science projects. I've seen MANY that a student would not have been able to do on their own. This was one reason our middle school discontinued these projects...too many parents were doing them, not the kids. If parents are doing this at the elementary level, it sets the stage for continuing this as the child becomes older. Homework of any sort is supposed to be done by the STUDENT...but some parents just can't let that happen. I will proofread for my kids, but that is IT...oh...and not for the college kid. He's on his own and he should be.</p>
<p>I have a feeling this type of "support" is more common than many might think. It is difficult to wean the student, and obviously the internet makes it too easy to email a paper home for editing. I think there is a huge difference between sending a paper to mom for editing and sending the assignment to mom for writing. Seems like all colleges have "writing centers" these days. We visitied schools where freshmen are REQUIRED to run papers through the writing center. I have heard fairly casual comments from parents about "writing essays" (NOT, "editing" essays) which totally shocked me.</p>
<p>thumper, your story about parents doing projects for kids reminded me of the cub scout pinewood derby. I always got a kick out of seeing these 9 year old boys show up with highly detailed little cars with their fine laquer finish and shaved wheels (done on a lathe).</p>
<p>What about parents or guidance counsellors reading over their kid's college essays, before they're sent in w/applications? That's been talked about on CC and certainly encouraged on some threads. Some parents would say it's just "proof-reading." I'm not sure one can draw a distinction, though, between reading over college essays and reading over class papers. Reading over and re-writing are two separate issues, but this is where people run into trouble. Reading over and making suggestions can quickly turn into re-writing. Probably best to avoid it altogether.</p>
<p>This kind of parental "support" sends a clear message to the child (of any age) that the parent does not have confidence in their ability to do the job proficiently. Now that is a shame.</p>
<p>My daughters sometimes proofread MY articles and essays. They might say, "This is repetitious," or "I don't understand the point you are trying to make in this sentence," and then hand the paper back to me. I think that this is the type of proofreading that is helpful. They are excellent writers and can hold their own anywhere. I've never written anything for them, ever. But I have given them tips on how they can express their thoughts more clearly and effectively ... that's always good, at any age. </p>
<p>And I agree, people writing high school and college papers for their kids is wrong and just plain ridiculous!</p>
<p>azephyr: While I agree with what you are saying, especially the point that even excellent writers can still need someone to read over material to ensure it actually makes sense, I do think this type of proofreading can quickly turn into a slippery slope (for some).</p>
<p>When I relayed this story to my husband this morning, he told me of a nephew of his who went to a private school. His parents would always proofread his papers/bookreports and his mom mentioned once reading one of his summer reading books to adequately correct his paper. He thought that happened more than she admited.One day while he was over, she was on the computer in microsoft, correcting his paper. She (only a little embarasssed) said he was a slow typist and she could do it quicker. Suffice to say in his case, he left the private school for a so-so college, 1000 miles away, and had to come home after freshman year. Just couldn't do the work, partied too much, etc. She stole any work values and study habits he might of gotten. Now he could of saved himself then, but I think along with laziness, a low confidence issue that was mentioned before comes into play. You don't think you can do it and you don't try.</p>
<p>This seems to be the week of posts where parents do what it takes to create the kid they want! I was just shaking my head on another thread over folks who think it's a good idea to pay their kids to study for the SAT.</p>
<p>Eventually all of these kids who were helped in ways they should not have been will fall on their face. This is very sad. What are these folks thinking?</p>
<p>When my kids were young, ie. elementary and middle school, they did all their own work, but I took an active role in reviewing their writing--showing them how to improve it, teaching them how to edit. By high school, they did more and more without my involvement, altho they would sometimes show me something for comment. Like azephr's kids, I now show MY stuff to them ( esp. my college grad. daughter, who's a terrific writer) because I really respect their judgement and abilities. The point is, I felt that our school did not offer enough in the way of teaching kids to be good writers, so I felt my input was necessary. I think the key is to do this in a way that empowers the child so that he/she can then develop an individual style and voice.</p>
<p>You make a good point, Jack. There are some students who just want "the answer" spoon-fed to them.</p>
<p>What ever happened to the joy of learning?</p>
<p>I was very surprised when a friend of mine told me his wife got an A- on a paper at his son's college. When I asked how she did that, he said "through the magic of e-mail." He said she wrote most of his son's papers one term for his freshman writing class in college! I'm still shaking my head, mostly because apparently they see absolutely nothing wrong with doing this! And now I wonder how much of his high grade point average in high school (which helped him get into highly selective U) was his own work. These are people who used to impress me. Not any more.</p>
<p>I'm always amazed that the parents would want to do the work for their kids- doing it once when I was a kid was enough for me! Plus, I wasn't able to help my kids with math once they got past elementary school.<br>
I'd rather my kids fail and learn from their mistakes while they are in middle or high school than have them learn that lesson in college.</p>
<p>Based on what's posted here, some of those kids won't be learning their lessons until they go into the work place and can't perform. Presumably Mommy and Daddy won't be able to write their reports then.</p>
<p>I was so happy when my kids got to high school and were independent in school, no more creative artsy projects or asking did you do your paper. They learned the study and discipline needed for college. However in college I know there are writing centers where they review your papers and proof read them. This is encouraged for students to use. I know thay my S hasn't used it as it means getting your papers done earlier and getting down to their office, but I am not sure this is that much different . For college apps. I think it is important for someone to proof read it and give a neutral opinion. My D used her AP English teacher, and I know he helped a lot of kids by asking the right questions and helping students organize their thoughts better. I see that as a positive.I know it is discouraged for parents to be the ones to proofread college essays.</p>
<p>This is off the original topic, but I totally agree that kids don't get any guidance in learning to write. The first teacher I have seen mark up writing assignments in red, with thorough suggestions, (between two kids going through school) was the AP English teacher my senior daughter has this year. Most of the others just put a few token marks on papers and a grade. This does not help kids learn to improve their writing.</p>
<p>How is it that kids get to high school and still WANT help from their parents with regard to improving their schoolwork? What self-respecting teenager lets his parents that close to his studies? I can barely get my son to show me stuff after it has been turned in and graded, much less before that.
I'll never forget the day my D brought home a story in the thrid grade that had been graded by the teacher, with a couple of suggestions for improvement, and my D was furious and indignant. "I didn't WANT to say it the way she wanted... I wanted it the way I WROTE it!" She has always had her ego invested in her writing, and it took her until high school to separate herself from it enough to take criticism gracefully from teachers. I can only imagine the damage I could have caused to her budding sense of self if I had tried to "improve" her work early on. Parents need to but out unless the kids really need remedial work or extra practice, in which case they can set the stage for growth, but should not influence the product. How can kids take pride their success if they don't earn it on their own?</p>
<p>thumper1, I wonder whether I am the only parent that has a different experience on this. At D's elementary, teachers stop parents(H&I) to tell us to help check our kids with homework. We asked them how then do they know and get the feedback that our kids understand the lesson if we were to check for correctness in homework,ie how do teachers know their kids did not get/understand certain materials, etc.. This repeatedly happened to our Ds in more than one elementary schools. H & I agree that we must check that our Ds do their homework, but not for correctness? Isn't that what the teachers get paid for?
More often, teachers did not cover a certain subject in class but they give homework on this subject and expect busy parents to teach our kids instead. I must be different, I believe homework serves as a reinforcement of what were taught in the classroom and not the other way around.
Needless to say, we had a one-one talk with the principal. Nowadays, some teachers seem oblivous to what's right or wrong in teaching kids, imo.</p>