Engineering: Berkeley, Cornell, UPenn, or Northwestern?

Parents Forum
21

<p>RichardDad--regarding undecided on engineering major, perhaps the advice I'd pass on is to make sure the school your son chooses has plenty of options, i.e.,complete coverage of conventional engineering choices.</p>

<p>As I mentioned before, Penn SEAS has some very strong departments (like computer & telecom), but is missing a few like civil & environmental. Heres a list of Penn majors:</p>

<p>Bioengineering
Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering
Computer and Telecommunications Engineering
Computer Science and Engineering
Digital Media Design
Electrical Engineering
Materials Science and Engineering
Mechanical Engineering and Applied Mechanics
Systems Science and Engineering</p>

<p>Note that the chem eng dept has a bio twist. Penn is very strong on the bio side, and much of their research is related to bio-oriented topics, some related to the nearby pharma industry...this may be a turnoff for your son. On the other hand, the Penn M&T program combined with SEAS & Wharton, which requires special application & is highly competitive, is a fantastic program to mix engineering with business.</p>

<p>Cornell is very deep in its engineering departments. Here's a listing:</p>

<p>Biological Engineering
Chemical Engineering
Civil Engineering
Computer Science
Electrical and Computer Engineering
Environmental Engineering<br>
Engineering Physics
Geological Sciences
Information Science, Systems and Technology
Materials Science and Engineering
Mechanical Engineering
Operations Research and Engineering</p>

<p>This is a complete list of the conventional majors. A Cornell engineering student can also minor in ops research & management science, a highly analytical area related to the business world, but certainly not a business minor.</p>

<p>Likewise, Northwestern has a solid list of majors, including "industrial" which is prevalent at schools with a manufacturing industry connection.</p>

<p>BS in Applied Mathematics
BS in Biomedical Engineering
BS in Chemical Engineering
BS in Civil Engineering
BS in Combined Studies
BS in Computer Science
BS in Computer Engineering
BS in Electrical Engineering
BS in Environmental Engineering
BS in Industrial Engineering
BS in Manufacturing and Design Engineering
BS in Materials Science & Engineering
BS in Mechanical Engineering </p>

<p>Appears that Northwestern also offers a dual eng-business degree like Penns M&T program. I suspect this is likewise a great program, but competitive & not for the faint of heart. Here's a link:
<a href="http://www.mccormick.northwestern.edu/prospective/honorscombinedprograms.html#HPEM%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mccormick.northwestern.edu/prospective/honorscombinedprograms.html#HPEM&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Finally, as you probably know, UCB has a strong list of possible majors:</p>

<p>Bioengineering (BioE)
Civil & Environmental Engineering (CEE)
Electrical Engineering & Computer Sciences (EECS)
Industrial Engineering & Operations Research (IEOR)
Materials Science & Engineering (MSE)
Mechanical Engineering (ME)
Nuclear Engineering (NE)</p>

<p>Nuc engineering is an unconventional department for undergrads. While UCB has a Management of Technology graduate program (eng + business), I could not find info on busniess minors or combined eng-bus undergraduate options, but I'd bet they exist.</p>

<p>So, all in all, I'd rule out Penn for your son based upon the fact that their engineering major options seem slightly more limited relative to the others, plus Penn has a bio orientation relative to the others.</p>

<p>Couple of other things to ponder:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>character of the engineering research & faculty interests. Different schools will be influenced by their environment, which will trickle down to research funding, faculty focus, and eventually to class discussions. Northwestern, being located in an urban environment, may sway towards more manufacturing topics, as evidenced by their industrial engineering major. UCB perhaps tends to focus on more things California, like Silicon Valley issues, large water quantity topics, and the like. Cornell, being a Land Grant school, may have more agricultural bent. Penn, as I mentioned above definitely has a pharma connection. Suggest your son gauge faculty interests for each school by surveying faculty bios on their web pages. Are his & their general interests aligned? He may not realize what his interests generally are (or perhaps importantly, what they are NOT) until he starts reading up on what the faculty are doing.</p></li>
<li><p>size of the institution. I would imagine that the smaller the engineering program, undecided students will be in an environment more conducive to play out their options. The bigger the engineering school, the more folks will tend to choose a specialty right away. Just a thought. I don't know if this conjecture is true, & other than knowing that UCB and Cornell, being state schools (Cornell, although an Ivy, is a Land Grant school), have huge eng schools, I'm not sure if Penn or Northwestern are that much smaller, but I suspect so. I'd bet Northwestern has the smallest engineering school, and may therefore, by its size, promote the homiest & most flexible atmosphere.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Good luck.......PC</p>

22

<p>For both UPenn's M&T and Northwestern's honors program you have to apply when you apply to the school. Otherwise it is extremely difficult to get in if not impossible. Faculty bios is a good suggestion, thanks. And I agree your last point. NU and UPenn are about the same size which are about the half the size of Cornell or Berkeley. All apple to apple undergraduate only comarison.</p>

23

<p>I had a chance to exchange emails with Assistant Dean. His response was prompt with clarity. I am impressed. In my opinion Berkeley is clear of any charge(?) regarding the issues I raised. The following is a summary of the input I got from him.</p>

<p>At the end of the freshman year, about half the freshmen receive AP or other credits to put them above the 60 credits needed to be considered a junior. That explains the huge drop in sophomore and a good portion of the surge in junior for which the main reason is still transfers as suspected. Last year, they accepted 30-40 internal transfers mostly from CL&S and about 160 mostly from California Community Colleges.</p>

<p>For freshmen who entered in the fall of 1999; 78.8% have graduated with Engineering degree, 10% graduated from another UCB College and 4% academically dismissed.</p>

<p>For those who entered freshmen and graduated during 2003-2004 academic year, 85% completed there degree in 8 symester or less, 14.5% finished in 9 semesters, and .5% needed 10 semesters</p>

24

<p>RichardDad,</p>

<p>Although you mention that you are willing to spend the $100,000 difference, your son is not going to get any more prestige, higher starting salary offers, etc. by choosing any of the other three schools (I have my PhD in Mechanical Engineering from MIT, and I have friends who are/have been faculty members at all 4 of your son's schools, and all 4 are excellent engineering schools). Is it possible that if your son attends Berkeley that you could afford to pay for his MBA after he works for five years or so? That might be a consideration. I really do not see a big difference between the schools in terms of academic quality or even for a particular program, and all 4 offer plenty of variety of excellent possible majors. </p>

<p>If you can afford for your son to make the decision independent of cost, then I would suggest going with his "feel" or "fit." The fact that he was accepted at all 4 demonstates that he is qualified to do well in engineering, assuming he applies himself. If he attends any one of the four schools with a positive attitude and works hard, then there are more than ample opportunites at any of them for your son to find an intersting major that can lead to a good job in engineering with the possibility of going to business school later.</p>

25

<p>pafather, I am not worry about the starting salary. However it is important for you to be in the right position, right company, right industry and you need to work hard and smart to perform. Then the money will come to you. But I disagree with you on the prestige thing. Prestige comes from exclusivity and brings you a pride. Yes, I am willing to spend $100K if he needs to go to a particular private school so that he can be proud of his school for the rest of his life. It is tough to agree Berkeley (undergraduate) has the same prestige when you have 25% of your class mates from community college. I know I said a horrible thing. But I want to be very honest with you all, who decided to spend not a small amount of your time reading and writing to help me and my son.</p>

<p>I agree with you on the academic quality of the four schools. They are close enough that at the end of the day it would not matter how much data/information you have on those schools it will be your gut feeling decision. What about the $100K if he decided to go to Berkeley? I thought about it for a few possibilities including the one you suggested. But I didn't want to talk to him about it as it could influence his decision quite a bit.</p>

26

<p>R-D:</p>

<p>your comment about Berkeley is just soooo wrong. Take a look at the recent London college survey which ranks Berkeley #2 in the world, ahead of every other tech school, including IIT, MIT, et al.</p>

<p>But, if you want to spend $100k for a private school, it's your money. However, if I was your kid, I'd rather have you give me that $100k for a down payment on a house some day.</p>

27

<p>bluebayou, I could be wrong (by everybody's standard). But prestige is very subjective matter. So there is no right or wrong here. I am just sharing where my thoughts are. About the ranking I'd agree Berkeley is lot higher than USNEWS's 21st if it was for entire university including graduate schools. How you want to use money is your value issue. I see that much value in it.</p>

28

<p>Definitely Penn simply because the people at Penn Engineering are more well-rounded and down-to-earth that the others. At least, that was my impression when I visited, and, hence, I chose Penn over Cornell, Berkeley, and some others.</p>

29

<p>But don't get me wrong. I am not rich enough to waste that much money AS a matter of fact I have to work at least 10 more years to support my second one's college. 12 years apart. Or I may not be able to retire at all.</p>

30

<p>but, my point is that neither of those schools is more prestigous than the others. The only consideration, IMO, is the 'value' of a private school as it pertains to undergraduate experience.</p>

31

<p>bluebayou, Yes, I recognize we have difference in our view on prestige. I am thankful about your feedback and I appreciate your view. And if I were to choose between undergraduate and graduate for private school education I'd choose undergraduate when the kids need more care.</p>

32

<p>bean001, congratulations on all those graet schools and on the fact that you made the decision. I was at Penn with my S. It was a awesome school, especially the people: faculty, students and staff at the Engineering office... They treated us like old friends: all personable and caring. Good luck! Who knows my son still can choose your school.</p>

33

<p>r-d;</p>

<p>au contraire. YOU are looking at prestige from your family's view point, which I'm guessing is a certain athletic league on the east coast. Great in hockey. The rest of the world looks at programs, and Cal ranks #2 in engineering. Just bcos YOU beleive an athletic league has prestige doesn't make it so.</p>

<p>Withe the exception of the weather, Cornell would be similar to Cal - bureacractic, and grade deflation ("easiest Ivy to get into, but hardest to get out of"). NW is a great school, on the banks of Lake Michigan, and very pre-professional with a large greek scene. Dunno about Penn's egineering program, but Wharton is tops. Penn is also very urban.</p>

<p>If my kid was in your situation (and I had $100k to spend), I'd suggest that they go wherever they wanted to spend the next four years of their life, i.e. FIT. OTOH, if I could give them $100k graduation present to setup their future life, I'd recommend Cal bcos the education and prestige is just as good.</p>

34

<p>FWIW, I myself have an engineering degree from Cornell and I don't think Berkeley is any less presitigious, personally. It's an outstanding engineering school.</p>

<p>Everybody that matters (employers, grad schools) knows this.</p>

<p>There probably isn't a hill of beans worth of difference between any of the programs really, at least not so much as to tip a decision like this. If it were me I'd decide based on where I'd rather be. The relative cost is also a perfectly legitimate decision factor.</p>

35

<p>bluebayou, I tend to agree with you. Out of all those schools, UCB has the most prestige. If I were RichardDad, I would put $100K in a Roth IRA for Richard and with compound interest, he'll be set for life. He can afford to take risks without worry. He can start his own company and not having to work for other people, etc..
My cousin went to CC and then transfered to UCB not because he's not smart, but because he is an immigrant and he needs to learn English first. Also, even for Cornell, there are people transfer in, not everybody starts as a freshman. I know my friend did. UCB is a state school and it must accept transfers from CC. Cornell is a huge school, not much different from UCB. In, Silicon Valley, where there's a large concentration of geeks(lol), UCB graduates definitely have an edge over other engineering schools.</p>

36

<p>bluebayou, monydad, SusieQ,</p>

<p>I am not sure what bluebayou meant by "looking at prestige from your family's view point" but I can tell you for sure I am looking at it from my view point. I believe majority of the athletic league members carries higher prestige than Berkeley's at the (over all) undergraduate level. When it comes down to (undergraduate) Engineering prestige I believe the number is reduced to maybe two: C and P. For graduate level Engineering prestige I don't thinks there is anyone exists in that league that can top Berkeley's. I understand this view is quite different from yours in undergraduate education. But surely your feedback will make it easier for me to accept his decision if he decides to go to Berkeley. </p>

<p>Yes, I recognize the importance of the school location as it will have a good impact on where you will end up working/living first out of college. Silicon Valley will be the perfect place for him if he still holds his career vision. So I'd say Berkeley has a clear edge in this factor. </p>

<p>SusieQ, you hit me with this one: (with $100K in his bank account) he can afford to take risks without worry. I never looked at the money in relation to my son from that angle. My thought was always giving money is the easiest way to spoil your children, invest in their education for their longer term future success. But looking back, there were times in my early career where I might have made a different decision if I had $100K in my bank account. I will have to think about this one. SusieQ, please forgive me on CC.</p>

37

<p>My son had to decide between UPenn and Cornell for engineering. He chose Cornell. After doing the regular tour and information session at each school, he returned to each to take the engineering tour. He found the undergraduate areas at UPenn to be mostly in the basement and depressing. Besides the better physical facilities and larger, higher ranked, program at Cornell, a big factor for him was that my cousin, who is a professor in biomedical engineering at Penn, persuaded him to go elsewhere. Just doesn't think Penn offers a great undergraduate engineering program for the exceptionally bright kid. [He wasn't commenting on the M&T program as my son wasn't interested in doing a joint program as an undergraduate.] And in contrast to Bean001's experience at Penn, my son preferred the kids at Cornell, finding them to be friendly, unpretentious, well-rounded, bright kids with many diverse interests. I guess it depends on who you happen to meet while visiting a school.</p>

38

<p>Odyssey, thanks for sharing your own experience. I wonder how much your cousin's input played a role when he made the visit as our visit was completely opposite to your son's as I said. A couple of surprises from the Dean's presentation during our visit: You mentioned about "exceptionally bright kids". 2004 Engineering majored freshmen's SAT average was either 1490 or 1500 which I found quite high considering Penn's Engineering ranking. Another thing was about half the most recent graduduates went to financial institutions or consulting fields (computer related consulting included). I thought it was unusual. My interpretation: if you are interested in Wall Street or Bisiness Consulting, do M&T or dual degree with Business. You will become a sought-after commodity. But if you are interested in more traditional engineering track, whether it is job or graduate school, Penn may not be the best place.</p>

39

<p>That is very high indeed and I am very skeptical about the stats because that's higher than even Harvard's. I don't even know if MIT has a higher average than that. Why would a bunch of kids with 1500 end up in Penn when there are quite a few other better engineering schools to choose from?</p>

<p>The M&T and dual degree with biz are not done by many; they present it as attractive "option" but getting in is very competitive and probably very few are allowed to do so.</p>

40

<p>The number is off of Dean's slide presentation. I would not question integrity of the data. I don't have a judgement against MIT or Harvard as I don't have their data. But I know it is quite higher than Berkeley for which I have data.</p>

<p>As you said, my S got "attracted" quite a bit to the Engigeering/Business programs. (He is not any more though.) We met with an advisor for 40 minutes. She was the main organizer of the Penn Day for which we were there that day. You can imagine how busy she would have been. She was more than, no, extremely friendly and accommodating. (This was one of the reasons for my all positive comments on Penn people.) According to her M&T accepts about three students at the end of the freshman year. (You have one shot.) GPA was over 3.9 and they expect the successful candidates to have a significant EC and great relationship with professors. For sure not for everyone. I don't know how competitive the freshman admission is. As my S didn't apply for it. On the other hand the dual degree looked a little better. A minimum of 3.4 to apply (you have three chances: at the end of freshman, middle of Sophomore and at the end of So) and about 3.6 to be accepted. But it is 4.5 years plus/minus program. And close to 30% of Engineering students end up doing double degree. Heavily business oriented Engineering school. My opinion.</p>