My daughter is applying to college this fall and is interested in modified engineering programs that combine engineering coursework with a secondary major such as International Relations, Public Policy or Economics. She is very interested in the modified engineering major at Dartmouth that would allow her to pursue interests outside of engineering yet still earn a technical degree. I realize a traditional major in engineering may be more valuable and lead to greater job opportunities, but she feels that the course requirements would be too demanding and not interesting to her. She is applying to both liberal arts colleges (Bucknell, Pomona, Clarmont McKenna) and several large schools such as USC or UIUC but would most likely not major in engineering at these schools.
Does anyone have experience with a modified engineering program? Will she be in demand as a graduate of these programs?
My son was very interested in this route just for the breadth in curriculum. He knew though that he wanted to be an engineer, so ABET accreditation was important. What he learned was interesting. The programs at LACs (Bucknell, Lafayette, Union, etc.) don’t have any more history, art and social sciences than most any other engineering program (ABET has LA requirements), but they seriously lack in facilities compared to the big time engineering programs. Dartmouth’s ABET program is 5 years. There’s no way he/we were going to pay $300k for a program that isn’t respected in engineering circles. Their 4 year program might be worth looking at if she’s interested in banking or something they doesn’t require an ABET degree. Long story short, the LA/engineering thing really is a unicorn. Good luck.
Note: Cal Poly has an interesting Liberal Arts and Engineering program. Like Dartmouth’s 4 year program though, it will never be ABET accredited.
Thank you for your feedback. It is nice to hear from someone who researched Engineering / LAC programs. We are concerned about spending so much money on a program that is not highly respected in engineering circles. We have known several students who completed a traditional engineering program at Cornell and my daughter knows this is not the right path for her. We will continue to research different alternatives.
(Note: “liberal arts” properly includes math and science as well as humanities and social studies.)
A typical engineering major will include 25% math and natural science and 20-25% humanities and social studies (although some may have less, e.g. Brown). However, 25% humanities and social studies may not be enough to earn a second major in such a subject, and some schools have distribution requirements within this category that make it more difficult for the student to study such a subject in greater depth even without a second major.
The ways to increase the volume of humanities and social studies courses alongside an engineering major:
a. Start with a large amount of useful AP, IB, or college credit earned while in high school. Useful means that it can be applied to subject requirements or lower level courses, so that the student can take higher level courses, freeing schedule space. However, the student should try the old final exams of courses to be skipped to verify his/her knowledge before taking more advanced courses.
b. Overload the schedule by taking larger numbers of courses or credits per semester than normal. Obviously means less free time for non-course-work activities.
c. Take extra semester(s) or year(s) (including summer sessions). Obviously costs extra money.
d. (Variant of c) Doing a 3+2 program would be a variant of this method, though the “3” school would have to allow pre-engineering students to major in the desired humanities or social studies subject (many, but not all, “3” schools restrict the major to a science).
e. (Variant of c) Starting at a community college and taking lots of extra courses (possibly extra semesters) there (i.e. inexpensively) before transferring, though it would only work if the community college has good coverage of the frosh/soph courses in both the engineering major and humanities or social studies subject.
Not sure what is actually meant by “modified engineering programs.” For an engineering degree, you still need to complete the ABET requirements. CMU is not an LAC but has had Engineering and Pubic Policy for decades. https://www.cmu.edu/epp/
All engineering programs are tough… but I’ve heard that Cornell is particularly intense. Still any engineering program that is ABET accredited (important) will not have much room for non-engineering electives.
@sevmom, you don’t need ABET accreditation to get a degree in engineering. Non-ABET programs are around. A degree from such a program will not likely result however in a very technical job, maybe not an engineering job at all. I’d agree with @colorado_mom, Cornell has a reputation as a grind. All ABET engineering is hard. It doesn’t need to be brutal to produce great engineers. My son also avoided the classic grind programs, Cornell, CalTech and Colorado School of Mines were ones he quickly scratched when he learned about the typical student experience.
Honestly, I would recommend a school with sufficient flexibility to choose between engineering and one of those other majors after she has sampled intro courses in each and can make an intelligent decision on which direction she would prefer.
Some of examples of these are
Rice, Johns Hopkins, Rochester, MIT, Case Western, Washington University, Tufts, Princeton and Yale.
The problem with Dartmouth is that their engineering doesn’t specialize should she find she prefers that direction.
The Dartmouth program looks like it is an engineering sciences major that can be modified to include things like public policy. They do say you can do it in 4 years but 5 is more likely. If your daughter is still interested in Dartmouth, I would ask the department what kind of outcomes their graduates have had, how they are placing their kids.
I know there are non ABET programs, especially in things like Computer Science. For anything like civil, mechanical, etc. I would want an ABET accredited program.
U Rochester has a good engineering program and more flexibility than many engineering schools, as there are no core requirements other than a freshman writing course. You do have to take a cluster (3 classes) in one of the other disciplines (humanities or social sciences in this case). This combined with some AP waivers is allowing my son to pursue a mechanical engineering major and a polysci minor (or maybe dual major, haven’t looked into it yet).
U Rochester’s Take Five program looks interesting. Free tuition for fifth year to pursue other interests in the liberal arts. But, you have to apply for it.
@sevmom And, unfortunately, you can only use it to take classes in something you’re not pursuing a degree in. So in my son’s example, he couldn’t finish up his polysci coursework under the Take 5 program. Still a cool concept, just wanted to clarify that (we asked).
My question is what is her end game? Just she want to work as an engineer, but also wants the opportunity to take other coursework? Does she want a technical background, but would rather use that background in a business or legal field? For example, Penn has a bachelor of applied science degree in the engineering school as opposed to a bachelor of science degree. It’s not a full engineering degree, but students take engineering classes. It would lead to different careers.
In some schools (like Case Western I believe) you can study computer science for a BS (engineering) degree or for a BA. In CS, there may not be as big a difference in opportunities.
Either way, engineering students do take traditional liberal arts classes.
For background, I was intimidated by engineering so started at Penn in the applied science degree program (with a Wharton undergrad dual degree). Once I got into the coursework I decided I wanted to go for the full engineering degree, so I switched. The CMU engineering and public policy program is also an interesting one as it partners with a regular eng degree.
There are many options. If she isn’t sure what she wants to do, she should make sure she’s at a large enough university to allow her to change her mind and still have choices. She doesn’t have to commit right away. But if she thinks she might want a full engineering degree, it’s better to start in the eng. program. It’s always easier to switch out than in because of prerequisites.
“. If she isn’t sure what she wants to do, she should make sure she’s at a large enough university to allow her to change her mind and still have choices” - That’s good advise. The warning that goes along with it is to make sure you understand any GPA requirements for transferring schools withing the university. . Engineering freshman often have much lower GPA than high school, especially so for students unhappy in engineering.