Nice mix of schools - everything from MIT to big state Us but I have to wonder if the average starting salaries aren’t based more on where the graduates end up living/working.
Imo, the nature of academic advising plays a large role in getting lower SES kids successfully through engineering. I bemoan the colleges that admit and then leave them in the lurch. While some schools easily admit, they leave kids to proceed on their own, sink or swim. Others proactively track and build supportive relationships, from the get-go. (I’m refering to support beyond the usual student-advisor assignments.)
@lookingforward what would your advice be on how to go about identifying schools with strong advising departments? What should one look for, or what questions should one be asking?
These are considered low income families?
@jym626 - Good point. For college tuition purposes though, people below that threshold probably do qualify for more institutional aid, so maybe this is the bottom part of the donut hole/lower middle income group?
@taverngirl - I think good advising and supports are harder to flush out. One of the things we looked at first were graduation rates but then learned that can be completely misleading for schools that have strong co-op programs (my D will graduate in 8 semesters but because they are non consecutive, Purdue will consider her in their 5 year graduation rate stats). Next we looked at retention rates for engineering. That ended up being a more important indicator (IMO). Purdue gets a bad rap from some about their competitive transition to major program but, 92% of students starting in engineering graduate from engineering (and that number is climbing). Could be a question to ask if they break out those numbers socioeconomically.
The other important thing is academic support and advising but honestly, we didn’t really understand the depth until after D was enrolled. Help rooms for all the big freshmen classes , free one on one tutoring, tutoring available in all the dorms, mentoring programs, early summer start for those who need extra shoring up academically, living learning communities with faculty “dorm parents”, accessible/knowledgable advising, etc… Questions to ask: How many times are students scheduled to meet with their advisors throughout the semester? How accessible are advisors if there is an issue? Do advisors have access and track grades if there is a dip? What happens if a student begins to struggle? How easy is it to retake a course? Can you transfer the grade or just the credit?
I also think it’s important to know GPA thresholds for merit scholarships and if there is any grace period. Some schools will revoke scholarships immediately, others will allow another semester to bring up grades. That could be the difference between a students staying in school or having to transfer/drop out.
$48k to $75k includes the median household income of around $60k, although those with high school or college kids have slightly higher incomes. So for the latter group, the range is probably middle income, though a bit on the lower side. Of course, it is probably “low income” by forum standards where $260k+ complaining about getting no financial aid is common.
I agree it’s difficult to flush out and my first thought was also grad rates. But many kids who can’t hack engineering can change majors.
An increasing number of good colleges have special support in place for lower SES kids and first gens (not just other sorts of diversity.) This is more than just having an advisor (or dept advisor.) It’s a program to support success over the four years. These adults can contact profs for updates, contact students to keep track. Students aren’t left to wait in line for an appt with support.
Part of this is also how a college vets potential engineering kids, in the first place, whether they look for the right backgrounds and strengths- and a pattern of self-advocacy (going for help, when needed. It can come out in LoRs or other ways.) Part is also looking at the ECs, to see what experiences a kid brings, with the tasks and mindset.
The point isn’t simply to “want” engineering (which so many hs kids misunderstand,) and let in kids. Rather, to actively help the right kids succeed.
Right, but doesn’t it feed the monster by referring to them as “lower income”?
I guess I haven’t been around enough to see this. Can you provide examples/links?
For career advising support, I’d take a look at the college’s own website on career advising to see what resources are made available, how the career office is staffed (relative to its student body size) and the background of the staff. As an example, here’s a link to MIT’s website on career advising:
https://capd.mit.edu/about
Search the forums for “donut hole” and “middle class”.
It’s pretty close to a list of the top engineering schools from USNews. Top 5, 14 ranked 18th or better, plus Harvard at 24.
Another data point supporting my disagreement with statements similar to “any ABET accredited engineering schools is pretty much the same”.
The proper way to think about ABET accreditation for engineering is that it sets a fairly high minimum standard for learning goals, but the curricular organization, in-major elective offerings, out-of-major requirements and offerings, etc. may differ considerably. Any ABET accredited engineering program will teach what students in that type of engineering are expected to learn in school, but some may be better academic fits for a given student than others.
Yet another junk article. So many flaws. That “lower income” range. So many schools so difficult to get into- especially the OOS students for CA schools. Add the incomes as mentioned. I’ll bet for most their instate flagship is the best bet. Travel costs, instate tuition and likely wanting to work in the area they are from means a lot. Plus the cost of living. Who would go to Harvard when one can go to so many better engineering schools??? btw- gifted son wouldn’t even look at that campus when in Cambridge, MA years ago- math major.
Totally flawed - so that’s the average cost for an OOS student at GT, UC’s at that income level? Please caveat where it needs to be caveated. This list, as far as the public schools go apply to IN STATE STUDENTS ONLY.
Sigh. Great schools, and of course if you can get accepted, and get through theses schools, particularly the engineering curriculum, you will do well.
I’m working with a first generation to college kid. Heck, he’ll be first generation of his parents and siblings to graduate from high school. Goes to a school that is just starting to add AP courses, the social studies. Parents are divorced; combined with stepfather, income and assets yield an expected contribution far more than they will pay.
Despite all of that, kid is coming up with a 700 math SAT1 with no test prep and mediocre courses. Sharp kid—600 verbal and a 3.5 UW gpa, probably a bit higher weighted as he is taking honors courses.
Wants to go into engineering, and getting a Job with a good chance of easy employment and decent would make a world of difference to him.
I don’t see him getting into those schools and if he did, his very unaware parents who dont have a dime saved, and are in debt from living beyond means already aren’t going to be able to pay. Not that they feel they should. A genius like their kid would surely have all the top schools clamoring for him and visions of bidding wars are dancing in their heads fueled by the emails and stuff they are getting in the mail from colleges and programs.
Best option likely commuting to local college, working part time and taking out Direct Loan. State U is 45 minutes away. Don’t know if the junker he’s likely to get will be up to the job. Other cousins who have gone this route have not lasted, and they had more support than this kid gets
I’m looking at schools like Manhattan College, SUNY Maritime, Webb Institute , Lasalle University, McDaniel , and also throwing schools in South Dakota, Nebraska with sticker prices of $15-20k.
I am ever so impressed with tiny Manhattan College! Look at the engineers they are churning out with those test scores!?! And at what price tag? It doesn’t take a whole lot to take kids with 1500+ SAT1s, and 5s in BC Calc at top schools through the engineering curriculum. With families supporting education every step of the way. Schools like Manhattan are taking kids that barely get 5 digit SAT scores, and turning them into engineers.
I would have liked to have seen a list of such schools
@cptofthehouse - That was the list I was hoping for too! If DS20 had the stats to get into any of the schools on that list we’d be set. I needed low cost options for a “smart, but not spectacular” student.
@cshell2 , your son has a powerful force on his side in that he has an involved, informed, invested parent. I also get the sense that he is accustomed to working in a challenging academic environment. Other than a very tiny group of “black swans”, kids who don’t have those advantages and are not stratospherically brilliant, are not going to be even in the market for those schools.
I’ve always been a bit curt about those lists of schools that cherry picked off ever so many lists out there. As this list here is. I think the Colleges That Change Lived was a refreshing departure from that sameness but it still did not address the trifling subject of COST . Not only are many of these less competitive schools inaccessible to very low income students, they are not in the running for the many kids out there whose parents have higher EFCs than they are willing or able to pay due to many circumstances. Even if the reason is total BS, the kid is left holding that bag
@cptofthehouse Best post I have read here in a long time. Thank you.
Starting salaries are very misleading because every area has a different market. It’s just comparing apples and oranges and calling one better. An 95k starting salary sounds great out of Stanford, but Stanford is in the Bay area. That’s barely paycheck to paycheck. If you deflate living costs, it comes to around 50k a year in Texas. Well, in Texas you can live much better on 50k than you could on 95k in the bay area.
Don’t believe everything you read in the news, because the stats they use are very often bias or distorted. Just choose a school that work for you and your family.