Engineering?

Graduate School Law School
21

<p>Let's see.
1. Schools with good IP programs. Some of the best are Boalt (UC Berkeley), Georgetown, George Washington. and John Marshall (Chicago). For trademarks, University of San Francisco. I believe that Touro and/or Cardozo in NY also have such. Some local schools include Southwestern (LA), Hastings (SF) and Suffolk (Boston). There are others.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Mind you, IP nowadays covers a lot of territory, ranging from the highly technical patent law to some areas of entertainment law, e.g. music copyrights. Many schools offer a couple of basic courses in these fields; some offer more advanced courses. It's not absolutely necessary to take an advanced course in order to get an entry-level position in the field, though it helps.</p></li>
<li><p>As far as I know, Law schools don't consider what branch of law an applicant may want to enter. In most law schools, there are no majors or areas of concentration, though some do offer some concentration. Other posters know more about how law schools will evaluate an applicant with a science or engineering degree. See previous threads for such comments.</p></li>
<li><p>IIiniJ: f you're going to spend four years in college getting an engineering degree in order to become a patent lawyer, you had better like the subject; otherwise you're going to have four tough and terrible years at a time when you should be exploring and enjoying the new experiences. </p></li>
<li><p>I don't agree with Bigmain about engineering and writing skills. It's true that engineering does not specifically teach good writing skills, but it does teach one to be precise and to analyze problems. Some engineers have good writing skills anyway, and also take non-engineering subjects. Other majors may teach better writing skills (including better skills at writing baloney) but not necessarily the analytical skills that also are needed to practice law.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Let us know if you have more specific questions.</p>

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<p>sry if this is an ignorant quesitno, but what exactly is patent law? i heard this term a lot.</p>

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<p>Patent law is the law relating to protection of inventions, both high-tech and low-tech. It includes obtaining patents (US and/or foreign) ("patent prosecution"), licensing patents, and litigating over patent rights and patent infringement (lawsuits based on allegations that someone is making, using or selling a patented invention without permission from the patent owner - which usually involves some royalties or other payments).</p>

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<p>how do ppl knwo they want to specifically do PATENt law this early in the game? theres millions of kinds of law, and it seems tht like 80% want patent law. isnt that kind of overkill? getting a job woudl be impossible, its like having 30,000 ppl all wanting the same 3 person job. i dunno im rly have no idea about the topic tho, im asking questiosn not making statements cause i dont know anything about this. it just seems to me like its saying "i not only want to start my own buisness..but i want to start it manufacturing paper clips...and only paper clips..nothing else will work" its just so random to me that everyone wants to do patent law, when there r probably millions of kinds. if someoen can explain this to me, mabye i have no idea wat im talking about? lol thanks.</p>

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<p>Alright maybe I didnt phrase myself well. Dadofsam, I love ChemE, it is just really hard. But I expected that and there is nothing wrong with it. What I was asking are there Law Schools that look a little harder at the type of law you want to go into? Or does your focus in law not matter (b/c it pretty much doesn't sound like your undergrad matters? Also what other factors do law schools look at? I know what factors grad schools want because that is in fact where I felt like going in the first place.</p>

<p>And for punkrawk this is an engineering thread in a law forum. Most engineers who want to go to Law School would want to get into Patent Law b/c that is the only law degree that requires a previous degree in a science or engineering related field. It sounded interesting to me so it is definitely a big option. The rest of you post didn't really make sense but I think I got it.</p>

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<p>Hey, Punk. </p>

<p>I agree that anyone completely planning their career out as college freshmen (or high school seniors) is somewhat goofy.</p>

<p>However, some reasons SOME people might prefer patent (not that many people really do) is:</p>

<p>Patent law is more secure than some other areas of law. Patent issues tend to stay constant even in times of recession.</p>

<ol>
<li> Engineers/science majors are especially marketable as patent lawyers, because only they (apparently) can really understand all the issues involved with many patents.</li>
</ol>

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<p>Alright maybe I didnt phrase myself well. Dadofsam, I love ChemE, it is just really hard. But I expected that and there is nothing wrong with it. What I was asking are there Law Schools that look a little harder at the type of law you want to go into? Or does your focus in law not matter (b/c it pretty much doesn't sound like your undergrad matters? Also what other factors do law schools look at? I know what factors grad schools want because that is in fact where I felt like going in the first place.</p>

<p>And for punkrawk this is an engineering thread in a law forum. Most engineers who want to go to Law School would want to get into Patent Law b/c that is the only law degree that requires a previous degree in a science or engineering related field. It sounded interesting to me so it is definitely a big option. I find that planning ahead even if I don't follow through helps me to stay focused and keep my head in the game. The rest of you post didn't really make sense but I think I got it.</p>

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<p>Perhaps it would profit the would-be patent lawyer to major in a physical science (physics, chemistry) instead of in engineering? This begs the question, "Do pure science majors get graded as hard as engineering majors do?"</p>

<p>(Or are pure sciences seen as poor preparation for patent law, thus necessitating further applied science study in graduate school?)</p>

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<p>I would think something related to biology would be great for biotech patent, which should be huge in coming years.</p>

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<p>mrniphty, it's my stupid generalization, but i think it's easier (maybe much easier) to get good grades in pure science majors</p>

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<p>I'm going to try answering several questions in one shot, including some that were not asked.</p>

<p>First, mrniphty and Cardozo: engineering (various branches), physical sciences and biology are all useful in patent law. However, in choosing a major in college you should choose one whose subject you like. You will be spending several years in classes, breaking your necks to get good grades if you want to apply to law school, and so you'd better be interested in the subject. For myself, engineering was not interesting; I majored in chemistry. Of course, at that time my aim was to become a chemist, not a patent lawyer.</p>

<p>Some of you may find that to be the case, also. You may decide that you like engineering, or physics, or biology, or computer science enough to want to work in that profession. Another possibiity is that you may decide to work for a while before going to law school. So, again, you should major in, or at least take courses in, a subject that you find appealing and can understand and (hopefully) do well in.</p>

<p>Should you become a patent attorney, you might also find that you will be working in technical fields other than the one you majored in - for instance, because of the nature of work where you are. I know one patent attornry, with a degree in chemcial engineering, who was working at a patent firm without much chemical engineering work. So he was asked to work in patents on electronics, which he got to like better than chemical engineering, and which now is most of his work - patenting electronic circuitry and such things.</p>

<p>I don't have first-hand experience with law school admissions at this time. However, you wil see a number of posts by Ariesathena, who graduated with a degree in chemical engineering and is now finsihing up her first year in law school. My understanding is that many law schools look hardest at the GPA, second at the LSAT, and some make adjustments for the school you went to or what you majored in, but not necessarily major adjustments. She says that because grading is tougher in engineering subjects than non-engineering majors (don't know about physical or biological sciences) engineers are often at a disadvantage when applying to law schools.</p>

<p>I don't believe that law school admissions departments put much if any consideration into what area of law you plan to specialize in. People's plans change; in addition, an engineerign degree can be useful in other areas of law such as environmental law.</p>

<p>On the other hand, a point that I and others have made elsewhere is that patent attorneys-to-be do not have to graduate from top 10 law schools to find good positions. Their scientific credentials are also important, and whether they did well in a law school of reasonable quality.</p>

<p>Finally, anyone who likes science or engineering and is looking to go to law school should be aware that the types of thinking and the types of work that are involved can be very different. Some scientists do not like to have to think the way lawyers must. Some don't like sitting at a desk, generating only paper and not something substantial, as opposed to working in a lab or on an engineering project. Some don't like having to deal with intricate government rules and regulations, which can be more prevalent in patent law than in engineering work.</p>

<p>Enough for now.</p>

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<p>it's very stupid questions,</p>

<p>but why would professional graduate schools still put so much weigh on GPA?
wouldnt they know what "I" already know; one school is a lot harder than another and one major is a lot harder than another to get good GPA.</p>

<p>just wondering (eventhough i can't do anything abouti t)</p>

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<p>Dadofsam:</p>

<p>Clearly one should pursue something one finds interesting, as GPA is in fact usually more important than major. I was thinking about someone who might be more interested in biology/science than engineering, and should therefore proceed accordingly even if they want to do patent. </p>

<p>However, the truth is that LSAT is most important pretty much anywhere, with GPA 2nd, and major/undergrad somewhere after that. </p>

<p>Duh: </p>

<p>Schools will take quality of undergrad into account somewhat, and major into account a bit as well (though arguably not as much as they should).</p>

<p>The reason why they still focus on GPA overall is presumably because it would involve a lot more work to precisely calibrate what a grade means in every major at every school. (Some do look at the LSAT average for certain undergrads to help weigh GPA.) </p>

<p>Some would argue that USNews rankings also drive a focus on pure GPA.</p>

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<p>Cardozo and DadofSam's comments, re: GPA/LSAT issue.</p>

<p>In a lot of ways, it's a completely moot question when it comes to engineering. LSAT is incredibly important - I know people with the same GPA (3.2), and the ones with killer LSATs got Ivy acceptances and the ones with mediocre LSATs are at third-tier schools. (This also really starts to depend on where that 3.2 is from - the top 25 university renowned for grade deflation v. State U.)</p>

<p>However, GPA can absolutely cream you. A stellar LSAT will NOT make up for the low GPA that can come with engineering - i.e. less than a 3.0 in some situations. (Some people know my own situation at college - lowest grading major, most difficult work, plus medical issues to get there, but I had a LOT of company) - and my LSAT really didn't make up for it, as those who recall Twinkle's Thread can tell you. It's a lot like physics: to a certain extent, Newtonian physics works really well. When you get down to the atomic level, it just does not predict behaviour accurately. Likewise, to a point (I would say about a 3.0 to 3.1 GPA), the LSAT dominates law school admissions and is a really good predictor of where the student will end up. Beyond that, GPA is a huge factor, much in the same way that the wave characteristics of particles become important. (I know y'all must love that analogy.)</p>

<p>That's why I say that the % to GPA and LSAT becomes kind of moot... because most schools really have to swallow hard to admit a student with a low GPA, regardless of the reason. It's a lot like sticker shock. It's an uphill battle the whole way. </p>

<p>My basic stance on the whole thing is that engineers can pretty easily get themselves into that area where GPA becomes a huge detriment. They are also in the position of HAVING to do really well on the LSAT, whereas someone with, say, a 3.4 would not be stressing so much about breaking a 165 just to be viable anywhere.</p>

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<p>Aries comments all make sense.</p>

<p>I would just note that outside the top tier, you can still probably get away with a lower GPA as long as you have a strong LSAT. Of course, it would be nice if you didn't have to worry about that, but patent lawyers will also presumably be more marketable from such schools than most graduates.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
patent lawyers will also presumably be more marketable from such schools than most graduates.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is a summary of comments from previous threads on this point; please look them up for more information. For example, my post <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=12617&highlight=top-tier%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=12617&highlight=top-tier&lt;/a>. </p>

<p>The above quote is relevant, depending on whom the law school graduate is marketing him/herself to, and why.</p>

<p>A lot of posts here, as well as elsewhere on CC, are based on the principle that the only schools that count for anything are the so-called "top tier" schools, and that the only legal jobs worth discussing are those in Wall Street law firms. </p>

<p>Basically, that's nonsense. Most lawyers do not graduate from top-tier law schools and most do not work in corporate law for Wall Street law firms (or their West Coast equivalents, Silicon Valley law firm/venture capitalists).</p>

<p>Pick the locality in which you want to live and practice law. Ask attorneys in the best or biggest law firms in that area about preferred law schools. You will find that many of them graduated from, and regard very highly, the best law schools in that area (many of which, by the way, are at Large State Universities). The HYSC etc. graduates are comparatively few in number and in many localities are rather rare. This holds true not just for patent lawyers, but for lawyers in many other fields as well.</p>

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<p>Wow dadofsam...that sounds so reasonable! I'm not in law, but this seems to hold true for friends of mine that are attorneys. They are all making nice livings in locations of their choice. Sounds like a good deal to me!</p>

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<p>Great post, DadofSam.</p>

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<p>Dadofsam --</p>

<p>Just in case you're misinterpreting my post:</p>

<p>I'm certainly not saying that the only schools that matter are the top schools, or that the only jobs that matter are those in "Wall Street" firms. </p>

<p>It's also very true that most attorneys do not attend top law schools. (It's simply a statistical impossibility.)</p>

<p>On the other hand, many attorneys, at least today, have to struggle somewhat to find gainful employment from most schools. Law is a very competitive profession, and it keeps getting more competitive. </p>

<p>I agree that outside of the most national schools, you should look for the schools with the best reputations in your desired region. However, most of these schools will probably be in the "top tier" (top 50), for what that's worth. (Outside of the top 15-25 schools, I think the rankings are basically best for determining the relative reputations of schools within your desired regions, though it is an imperfect tool for doing so.) </p>

<p>There will also be schools with solid regional reputations outside of the first tier, of course. But most students will presumably have an easier time finding work from the strongest regional school (or a top national school) then from other schools. </p>

<p>And students can certainly be successful from pretty much anywhere if they put forth the effort, do well enough in their class, etc. I think the focus on rank/reputation is simply intended to note that it will generally be easier to be successful from certain programs, whether they are top national programs, top regional programs, etc. </p>

<p>The point of my post was actually to note that school rank IS in fact less relevant in certain areas. For example, if someone is focused on patent law, and has an engineering background, they'll presumably be pretty marketable even from lower-ranked programs. (The same will probably be true of most top students at such programs.) </p>

<p>But I think it's worth noting that students in the bottom half of their class at MOST schools may fight an uphill battle in terms of placement, and that this just gets tougher the further you move down the rankings.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Law is a very competitive profession, and it keeps getting more competitive.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, especially in very competitive and desirable areas such as New York or San Francisco. </p>

<p>
[quote]
students in the bottom half of their class at MOST schools may fight an uphill battle in terms of placement, and that this just gets tougher the further you move down the rankings.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why should anyone expect otherwise? Students who don't do well in any school - law or otherwise - will have a more difficult time getting employment, let alone a good spot, than students who do well. Graduating from law school is not a guarantee of employment. But just as a high school school students applying to colleges have to apply to safeties as well as reaches, law school graduates looking for jobs have to pitch their qualifications to emplyers where they could fit. Sometimes that means taking a job in a small firm or in an outlying area or in a lowr-paying position. Sometimes a law school graduate might not even get a legal job at all, especially if he or she tries (as many do) to find one in a highly desirable location.</p>

<p>In short, if you go to law school, whether Harvard or your local night school, you have to do the best you can to graduate with the best ranking you can.</p>

<p>P.S. "first tier" law schools usually refers to the top 10-14 schools nationally. I don't have any numbers, but I would guess tha the next two "tiers" would include about 60-80 schools, most of which are well or very well regarded regionally.</p>