Ethnic Diversity

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
61

<p>
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When I went to the Academy , over two thirds of the midshipmen were first generation college. Anyone want to venture a guess as to what it is now.

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<p>As it was for most universities and colleges in the 60's. The Naval Academy was not unique for the times. Just as it is not unique for these times.</p>

<p>I find the argument that the Naval Academy is becoming too selective... Then I suppose that every state funded University in America is too. Take the University of Texas, or for that matter many of the UC system campuses, you need to be in the top 10% of the class to get in. Not much different than USNA! </p>

<p>My son's friends are a very diverse group, most are not BMW driving Midshipmen who feel more comfortable in Topsiders and khakis sailing for the summer. Just because a young person happens to be "lucKy enough to be born in an affluent area" does not automatically make that individual "affluent" Very dangerous assumptions IMO.</p>

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<p>The reason for my 'first generation' comment deals not with the uniqueness of the times, but with the ability to lead our enlisted troops. The further the Brigade moves toward the BMW driving lacrosse playing affluent surburbs, the less they are able to relate to their charges.</p>

<p>My intent was affluent areas with all the benefits thereof, namely good schools, and not necessarily affluent individuals. I allowed my rhetoric to get a little out of hand.</p>

<p>Bill, I am a little surprised at your comment, on a forum such as this one specifically, which I assume was directed at me. No intention of degrading government employees, but do you really equate those who spend a career serving their country, going in harms' way, as mere government employees?</p>

63

<p>not to change the direction of the tide here-</p>

<p>both my kids, at one point or another in their education, did a paper on affirmative action. Interesting research, interesting points made. Both papers, if I recall, addressed the Michigan Law School incident- which went all the way up to the supreme court. As part of the testimony of record (bill, forgive me if this is not the legal term) addressed the practices of the USNA and USMA in the admissions process of making allowences based on minority status. The decision was split, but it allowed the continuation of the use of minority consideration as ONE factor in the decision to offer admission, howeve made it very clear it could not be the SOLE factor in the decision. {as an aside, as the academies fall into the latter category with the "whole person score" ]</p>

<p>Anyway- added to that was a very insightful opinion offered by Justist Renquist (cannot recall if he was the minority opinion or the majority- but you fine folks can look that up)...anyway, his opinion recognized the injustice inherent in affirmative action, yet the need to uphold it for the SHORT TERM. He did state that affirmative action has run its course, and within 20 years of the decision would no longer be "justifable."</p>

<p>I think this speaks back to one part of what Flemming's article alluded to- that the lines of race are increasingly blurred, that with time we will be "one race." Perhaps that is the grand design.</p>

<p>Not to venture off the topic too far....but will share this interesting note of fact. Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory- world renoun- headed by Watson- the co-discover of DNA. Won a nobel prize for it. Headed the lab until just recently, when in his 80's (and still involved in mapping the human geomne project at CSHL) he made a comment when presenting at a scientific genetic forum re: race, that there is a genetic explanation for IQ differences between black and white. (please folks- not my opinion, so please don't shoot the messenger!!!) Anyway, it cost him his postion at the lab and no doubt added a good deal of tarnish on his otherwish highly regarded brilliant career.</p>

<p>As life often has some interesting twists and turns, a story came out a few weeks later, this one mapping Dr Brown's own genetic makeup- and surprise,surprise, (no doubt to him) his genetic makeup was black and white! Gotta love the irony!</p>

<p>Anyway- back to my point- or should I say what I got from Flemming's point- if we all traced our genetic markers back, I bet there would be a lot more surprises then we can fathom.....so I think Renquist had it right- it is just a matter of time before it is one big huge happy family,and perhaps then we can all move past this.</p>

<p>As for the paper.... both kids took a bit of a different tack.... i think one even argued that "white" was the new minority..... anyway, the arguements fell flat, and both got no better than a "C".... interesting enough, both teachers were from other ethnic groups and no doubt did not appreciate their take on things. </p>

<p>Whatever. No easy answer. But looking forward to the day nevertheless.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The further the Brigade moves toward the BMW driving lacrosse playing affluent surburbs, the less they are able to relate to their charges.

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<p>USNA69- please leave the " BMW driving lacrosse playing affluent suburbs" out of it. First of all, they aren't driving BMW's, and second, the majority of them are far from the affluent suburbs. ALL of them have earned their way to their appointments and ALL will graduate and will be just fine out in the fleet. And togehter, they will bring another Patriot League title to the USNA..... an unbroken record. Lacrosse is a small world... getting bigger and bigger, but it is a small community nevertheless, and I know most of them for a good 15 years now- and that stretches far beyond USNA- name a college or university that has D1-2-3 lacrosse and I can cite you the bio of at least one of their players. You have no knowledge of these kids- where they come from, what it took to get them to where they are- so unless you are going to join Flemmings rants that athletes are the "set asides," go peddle that opinion elsewhere.</p>

64

<p>USNA69,</p>

<p>I think we're in "violent agreement" - but I don't want to presume so or put words in your mouth. </p>

<p>My point was that it isn't all about merit. If it were, then the demographic of USNA - and all the Service Academies - would be a lot less geographically and racially/ethnically diverse.</p>

<p>It is a good thing to have our Service Academies as diverse as possible as long as the standards for admission are not compromised. I trust the Navy/Naval Academy to set those standards and to evaluate the candidates accordingly. I don't think that overall the system is flawed, either.</p>

<p>The fact remains that every year about 500 of the roughly 2,000 applicants who are triple q'ed with a nom do not get offers of appointment, and sometimes their WPM's are higher than those who are given appointments. Again, this is not a unique USNA phenomenon; it happens in admissions offices at every university and college in the US.</p>

<p>For those who believe that it should be entirely "merit-based" that might seem "unfair". I'm not making a judgment on whether that's right or wrong, I'm just saying that it happens. And, to those applicants who are in that pool of 500, if you really want to go to USNA, reapply again next year.</p>

65

<p>
[quote]
but do you really equate those who spend a career serving their country, going in harms' way, as mere government employees?

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<p>there is a cancer in at least part of american society where people are disrespecting the military more than ever before. whether it involves marching in front of a recruiting station or just treating a former soldier with disregard. i realized this was really true yesterday when i was reading this thread over on serviceacademyforums.com: "Thank</a> you, we're very proud..." - United States of America Service Academy Forums</p>

<p>i studied vietnam war in my world history and i think this disrespect for the military and former military ppl started back then. it improved because of 9/11, but i think it is just as bad now as it was before.</p>

<p>here is a funny video that really makes this point:
Marines</a> in Berkeley | The Daily Show | Comedy Central</p>

66

<p>
[quote]
My intent was affluent areas with all the benefits thereof, namely good schools, and not necessarily affluent individuals. I allowed my rhetoric to get a little out of hand.

[/quote]
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<p>yes, you did. But I am just as guilty as I did not read this part of this post as carefully as the first part- attribute that to all the steam generated by the former. Anyway, lets get back to the discussion and leave the lacrosse kids out of this- they still have Hopkins to play.</p>

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<p>"I believe that we will win..."</p>

<p>Notre Dame last year - Hopkins this year. ;)</p>

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<p>The objective in the Admissions process should be to make sure that the appointee has the *ambition, fitness, leadership capabilities and academics to graduate. *</p>

<p>Each and every Midshipman brings something different to the Academy and ultimately the fleet. Admissions uses the WP criteria to make sure that all Midshipmen have the ability to graduate and become effective officers. Maybe the kid from a rural area with possibly not the best schools does not have the best academic stats... I would be willing to bet he/she does have ambition, fitness and probably leadership... Maybe the kid from suburban VA has the best academics and is a bit challenged on the fitness... The kid from the inner city has faced many challenges and has risen above them... There are many possibilities for why one student is chosen over another. It is the job of admissions to find the correct mix. Personally, I believe they do a very good job. I have friends from all backgrounds but we all have the same ambition... to be an officer in the US Navy!</p>

<p>If you feel that your stats are somewhat better than those you know who are offered an appointment, Ask your GBO why you did not make it this year... Listen to the answer and if you reapply, make sure you fill any voids.<br>
As much as right now you may feel that is is not a "fair" system, ultimately it really is.</p>

<p>Can't stand topsiders and khaki shorts ... to preppy for my taste but hey do love to sail - never had the opportunity before coming to USNA. Sailing cruise taught me a lot about the sea, something I have not gotten in Nav. or Seamanship and certainly was not something taught on a grey hull cruise... My fleet cruise was valuable with following the enlisted and being on a destroyer, with the fleet, for the first time. Both served a valuable lesson.</p>

<p>Never had the opportunity to see lacrosse before coming to USNA - great sport!</p>

<p>Go Navy Lacrosse!</p>

69

<p>
[quote]
I believe that we will win..."</p>

<p>Notre Dame last year - Hopkins this year

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<p>from your "post" to God's ear!!!!</p>

<p>Sadly the winning goal by hopkins last year was from our home town- captain of the lax team senior year- our Mid took over as captain when he graduated. You can bet there is rivalry there.... but then again, our HS goalie is now playing at UVA, attackman at ND and Cornell, and a few of the other middies landed at UNC, U-Maryland and Syracuse- so there's no escape!!! Taking Hopkins would be sweet nevertheless............and Navy came SO CLOSE last year!!!!!! What a heartbreaker!!!!!!! Lets hope Navy Lax can follow in Navy football's tracks!!! </p>

<p>(and yes, Lacrosse is a great game..."the game of kings"! FYI- It's the oldest native game in America, played by the Indians long before any of us were a twinkle in anyone's eye!!)</p>

<p>(for the record- no BMW in our mid's future any time soon.... but a nice new Jeep is headed his way!!! don't tell!!! ;) )</p>

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<p>I appologise for my last post. I misspoke, ( I am only human) mischaracterized and totally misinterpreted the comments of the Admission Officer. In my next life I will be a journalist. She was addressing a group of young men and women either in the application process or those considering applications to the service academies. Her comments were directed to those applicants from a very commpetitive area. As an Admission Officer she has contact with Congressional Offices processing applications for nominations. Her reccomendation was that all applicants apply to all nominating sources available. Most had only two Senators one representative and a possible Vice President. Her caveat was that she had seen applications for nominations from this particular region denied whereas they might be considered for nomination if they had the same credentials and applied in a less competitive region. Hence the "I wish this applicant was from another State" Once nominated they are all in the national pool></p>

71

<p>
[quote]
so I think Renquist had it right- it is just a matter of time before it is one big huge happy family, and perhaps then we can all move past this.

[/quote]
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<p>The potential for genetic blending aside, until human nature evolves beyond the apparent need (obsession) to find differences between individuals who in reality have so much in common, I sincerely doubt much will change…look at Iraq today…can you see a physical difference between a Sunni and a Shiite? I can’t and I don’t know anything about Mohammed's successors; they apparently do; enough to justify killing each other over the “disagreement”… </p>

<p>My interpretation of this issue of “diversity”; be it racial or economic; in terms of what is in the best interest of the Navy, comes down to an individuals capacity for empathy and understanding as well as a willingness to work along side someone whose life experiences differ from yours. I think you can find that capacity in most of the kids that show up on I-day. I believe the process that leads up to an individual getting through Plebe summer and earning the right to join the brigade can help shape and expand on that ability. </p>

<p>The larger question becomes; can they take that ability into the fleet where they are not working alongside fellow Midshipmen, individuals that were their equals and now have to deal with enlisted men and women whose life experiences and priorities may be substantially different than theirs. </p>

<p>I think their success may depend less on their zip code than on the life that they experienced at home; particularly the values and work ethic they grew up with. It’s a challenge for affluent parents to raise kids without a sense of entitlement along with an appreciation for work and a willingness to work hard; not for themselves though that is certainly important; but for the benefit of others as well.</p>

72

<p>Some of our best and most innovative military leaders were not anywhere near the top of their class at their respective military academies.</p>

<p>I would also say that the vast majority of the people I come across have a great respect for our men and women in uniform. If they don't it's ususally because they have a hard time differentiating between the policies of the elected civilian leadership and our nations military who's duty it is to carry out those policies.</p>

73

<p>^^^^^
Senator John McCain was third from the bottom of his class.</p>

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<p>mccain is definitely a "Great American". and a war hero for standing up to the enemy when he was a prisoner of war for so long. but was he a great and innovative military leader? i read that he went into politics when he realized that unlike his dad and granddad, he wouldn't make flag officer.</p>

<p>if we can include mccain, i want to include my favorite example from a movie i saw recently. congressman Charlie Wilson of Texas who graduated usna with the most demerits in history, but had a big role in ending the cold war as a congressman. (if you haven't seen "Charlie Wilson's War", it's a great movie!)</p>

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<p>It would have been extremely difficult for McCain to have made flag considering one third of his career consisted of absolutely no improvement in his tactical military skills.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I think their success may depend less on their zip code than on the life that they experienced at home; particularly the values and work ethic they grew up with.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>absolutely.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It’s a challenge for affluent parents to raise kids without a sense of entitlement along with an appreciation for work and a willingness to work hard; not for themselves though that is certainly important; but for the benefit of others as well.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>with all due respect- no more of a challenge than for any other parent. It all boils down to values, expectations, and how high you set the bar. Zip code, iincome- all secondary, optional and conditional. </p>

<p>Even Donald Trump, despite the millions and zip code, has instilled in his children the value of work, the value of a dollar, and the value of who you work for, with and under. </p>

<p>You are right- I can't tell a sunni from a shiite- but I can tell a person of character from one without, a person of integrity from a liar and a cheat, an honorable man from a dishonest one, a work horse from a slacker, and a leader walking the talk instead of talking up a good story. You know it when you see it, and it doesn't matter from which side of the train tracks they are from. </p>

<p>And on that note- don't much care if they carry a lax stick or a pogo stick, a football or a fooseball, basketball, volleyball, rugby ball, ping pong ball or no ball at all..... nor do I care if they drive a ford, chevy, audi, bmw or hundi....new, old, or otherwise.... </p>

<p>none of it matters.
I am of the belief we will all be measured on our worth as a person at some point, and each will have to answer for themselves.</p>

<p>
[quote]
My interpretation of this issue of “diversity”; be it racial or economic; in terms of what is in the best interest of the Navy, comes down to an individuals capacity for empathy and understanding as well as a willingness to work along side someone whose life experiences differ from yours. I think you can find that capacity in most of the kids that show up on I-day. I believe the process that leads up to an individual getting through Plebe summer and earning the right to join the brigade can help shape and expand on that ability.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I like to think this is the case- not so sure all the kids showing up for I day buy into the grand scheme of things--- but that is one of the objectives and perhaps the beauty of the 4th class system- the value of each to the whole. While they may show up with the essential ingredients and potential, not sure they are all "fully baked;" my hope is that they emerge that way come the hat toss, or at least some giant steps closer to the goal.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The larger question becomes; can they take that ability into the fleet where they are not working alongside fellow Midshipmen, individuals that were their equals and now have to deal with enlisted men and women whose life experiences and priorities may be substantially different than theirs.

[/quote]

in some ways, the same challenge that is faced in every other work environment- getting others to follow where they might not want to go, to do work they might not want to do, to do the right thing when there is no one there to direct, watch, guide or motivate...... granted, the stakes are higher. Again, all comes down to deep core values - instilled at an early age, nutured with love and care, fortified by time.... and it does "take a village," rich AND poor.... and who is to say which is the "advantaged."</p>

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<p>usna69: not sure what you mean about McCain. Others made Flag after long stints as a POW. VADMs Lawrence and Stockdale quickly come to mind. Is there something I am missing?</p>

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<p>DOD established the policy during Vietnam to promote POWs with their year groups. Stockdale and Lawrence came home as Captains, Stockdale relatively senior. Not to be too politically incorrect but the boards would have been sore pressed not to promote them to Admiral, not that they did not have distinguished careers and deserve it on their own merit. McCain, as a young Lcdr would have three promotions, more so on pure merit, merit which would have been hampered by his lack of experience since, not only was he behind his year group, but none of the POW aviators were placed in operational flying billets upon their return to the fleet. I am going on memory, but I don't think any ever flew again.</p>

79

<p>woo I just want to throw this out there because I have received message upon message about this: I am not bringing this issue up because I was denied admissions. I received an LOA in early november and an appointment in January so this is not because I am angry or anything at admissions. I am content with my status. I brought this up because I have heard a lot about this issue from other people. So please stop bombarding me with messages saying "I'm sorry you got denied. Reapply if you still want it".</p>

80

<p>I would hope they don't; it demeans what it means to be a minority. Wouldn't it eat at someone knowing they received an acceptance for their background, versus their own merit? True, minorities can use a helping hand. True, minorities can have difficulty accessing opportunities Caucasians have, but for something quite as discriminating as the Naval Academy, you would think they wouldn't lack the applicants of representative minorities.</p>

<p>Also, what about sports applicants that get the go-ahead for their ability on the field, versus their ability in the classroom, their ability to lead, and their ability as an overall person...? While I am sure that athletics has the pull, go look at any other institution on the D1 level. So many of those athletes float by on scholarships and admissions on athletics; at Naval Academy while athletics is a foot in the door, there is a whole other legion of requirements. How can someone be judged on just their on-paper value? Someone wisely pointed out, every graduate out of the Naval Academy is guaranteed a job; what it takes to get to that job and succeed is different for everyone.</p>

<p>It is a pity that the system is flawed, but there is never going to be a perfect 100% turnover rate for anything. It simply does not work that way.</p>