<p>Does anyone else think that the importance of essays and extracurriculars is exaggerated when discussing admission to ultra-exclusive schools (by which I mean Harvard and Yale)? I think that the statement "Once you have the necessary grades, it's only about extracurriculars and essays" is completely untrue, and may in fact be the reverse. I mean, I've seen some absolutely fantastic people with brilliant extracurriculars apply to Harvard + Yale, but it seems that the only people who actually get in are those with 97+ GPAs and 2350+ SATs and 770+ SAT IIs (this has been the trend at my school, ranked in the top 50 nationally, for a long time, broken only by a URM and the top statewide swimmer). I think that especially at competitive high schools where it is assumed that everyone applying to Harvard + Yale has cured cancer, been the president of all school clubs, is a nationally ranked concert pianist, e.t.c., and where most people with these ECs are white/Asian, the only thing separating the wheat from the chaff are grades. It all ultimately boils down to this. UPenn and other lower Ivies are actually becoming safeties for those who have these extracurriculars, but perhaps not the nearly perfect grades. Honestly, I don't think a non-valedictorian's gotten in from our school in quite a while. I dunno, I guess I just feel like they basically ignore personal qualities and essays and extracurriculars when it comes to applicants from highly overrepresented geographic areas and ethnic backgrounds. It saddens me, as I know that even though I have some very strong ECs and will have very strong essays and fantastic teacher recommendations and will exhibit interest in a major which is taken by very few students, I don't have those perfect grades, and as such, I probably won't get in.</p>
<p>It seems like that too at my D school. The people that got into Ivies have amazing SAT and GPAs. I know some of them so I know their ECs and they are so so, not national or state honors. I was really surprised because when I read a bunch of college admission books they indicate otherwise.</p>
<p>But you should read the ECs thread in the Parent Forum</p>
<p>I don't really know. I'd disagree for personal reasons, but maybe I'm in the minority here. Purely from a practical standpoint, however, schools that can pick and choose from a pool with almost identical perfect grades simply HAVE to use a holistic approach - and for those that strive to create a solid, varied, and dynamic student body, they would hardly have anything to win by a purely numbers-based approach.</p>
<p>""Once you have the necessary grades, it's only about extracurriculars and essays" is completely untrue,"</p>
<p>It's true to a great extent. The places like HPYS get plenty of applicants with sky high stats. Indeed, they have an overabundance of such students. For instance, 90% of Harvard applicants qualify for admission based on stats.</p>
<p>Maintaining a vibrant campus life -- in terms of ECs and students in a variety of majors-- is a big part of what such colleges offer, so much of their admissions process is making selections that will create a well rounded student body that will provide active members to hundreds of clubs and also will fill provide students for obscure majors. In addition, the schools want people from all sorts of backgrounds: regions, countries, types of schools, religions, political orientations, sexual orientations, and of course race and ethnicity.</p>
<p>I am a Harvard alum who has chaired my local alum interviewing committee and also has done things related to admissions at a national level.</p>
<p>Take a look at the acceptance and rejections lists on the CC boards of the top schools that interest you.</p>
<p>The only thing that is <em>not</em> true is that e.c.'s and essays are a <em>substitute</em> for academics. This mistaken notiion occurs that if someone's not getting in with a 2300 and a 4.0, whereas someone else (same ethnicity) gets in with a 2200 and a 3.9, the latter is getting in "based on e.c.'s and essays."</p>
<p>2400 + 4.0 does not equal "the qualifier for an Elite." (My quotation marks.) (With everything else "unqualified" or "less qualified.") </p>
<p>The 2200 + 3.9 may have done a lot more, <em>academically</em>, as well as in activiites, than the slightly higher scorer and one-tenth of a point+ GPA. The numbers themselves are not significant determiners for sorting out students. Class rank could be, though, if the school ranks, as well as many other kinds of stand-out aspects to one applicant vs. another.</p>
<p>The particular category or level of the e.c. may be a factor in admission, and the essay is more of a tip, a confirmation, a revelation than a "qualification" per se. The whole process truly is "holistic," or a word I prefer that U.C. uses: comprehensive.</p>
<p>"Class rank could be, though, if the school ranks, as well as many other kinds of stand-out aspects to one applicant vs. another."</p>
<p>hmm, question: my school says it doesnt rank anymore, but my parents keep insisting that in reality colleges find out your rank; it's just not disclosed to the student. are my parents right or wrong?</p>
<p>I think you have to look at the people who previously attended your highschool. I know at my highschool (affluent, competitive public school) you are completely accurate. The people accepted to Ivy League schools have (by CC standards) laundry list extra-curriculars. They are president of one or two clubs, excel at a sport and dedicate alot of time to community service. A girl from my school who was accepted to Yale had a profile somewhat like this - editor and chief of our newspaper, cross country + track captain, NHS secretary, class treasurer. Basically no one from my school stars organizations, business, or is nationally recognized for anything. I think its necessary to show an interest in the community and your school environment but the most important factor by a huge shot is academics. </p>
<p>I think that there are many misunderstanding because people compare themselves to other people on CC, when it truly is the high school that you come from makes a huge impact on how excellent your ECs need to be. If you go to a school that Ivy leagues generally accept several students from every year, you are competing with other members of your class for that position so the deciding factor is how your ECs and academics look in comparison to theirs..</p>
<p>I am guessing it is different if you go to a school where few people are accepted to Ivy leagues everyear.</p>
<p>Yeah, I have the same problem. My school doesn't rank, though what ends up happening is that Yale and Harvard accept either the valedictorian or the salutatorian.</p>
<p>@cliche
Even though they vehemently deny it, do you think that Harvard and Yale take only one or two members from the graduating class every year? If the top ten would all have gotten in separately at different high schools, would they get in if they were all at one high school? This is an honest question; I don't know the answer myself.</p>
<p>Your point about extracurriculars is interesting, though; perhaps, if the answer to the above question is in the affirmative, I should compare myself to the other students in my class rather than to CCers.</p>
<p>aristotle1990, only the valedictorian or salutatorian ever gets accepted to schools like Harvard. It's kind of ridiculous how some of these "top" kids don't even have good extracurriculars. I am not exaggerating. Some of these kids may be taking 7 APs, but aren't officer of any club and only did the required number of service hours. I don't think ECs and essays matter as much as people on CC keep stressing them, because only the people who have like 2300+ or 3.9+ stats ever get in from my school, regardless of how the rest of their profile looks. The valedictorian is almost always guaranteed to get into Harvard, and sometimes the valedictorian has not done much outside of school. It's true.</p>
<p>If you get into some ECs like some sports which are really physically demanding, that could make you really tired when you're done with school and you can't study for your test, you GPA will be low and you won't be meeting the bar to get into top schools either. I think not all ECs are equal.</p>
<p>@aristotle1990 i didn't mean to insinuate that harvard or yale or what not only took a certain number of students from our school every year. I meant to say that its almost a guarantee that they will take atleast 2 students each. Some years its more than this for our school, but 2 is usually minimum. Since many more students apply from our school than can be accepted, those students who applied are competing primarily with eachother. In general, the students with the top grades in the class are accepted regardless of extracurriculars. In general however most of the students at the top of the class do have a few extracurriculars (usually lots of community service, NHS, and a club or sport), but nothing spectacular. </p>
<p>When I look at CC boards I see people with fantastic statistics and many ECs - usually 5 or so clubs, a few awards, and an obvious passion. However these students are told they have low chances because there ECs are "weak" and "nothing special". If these students went to my school and had the same statistics they would be accepted in a heartbeat. </p>
<p>Its my opinion that a good percent of students at Ivy league schools have "laundry lists" of extracurriculars - nothing special but obvious dedication to the community -as well as superb grades.</p>
<p>^^Same for my D school, there should not be a laundry list of ECs. I think the max number of ECs is 5 at most. For example, 4-year of one sport is considered a good EC, it does not have to win national, regional awards either.</p>
<p>"Your point about extracurriculars is interesting, though; perhaps, if the answer to the above question is in the affirmative, I should compare myself to the other students in my class rather than to CC."</p>
<p>Yes, aristotle. At least that's the way I have seen it work most often (not exclusively, since clicheusername & others may have very different examples than mine). Depends on how tightly similar the academic qualifications of those applying to that Ivy from the same school. In the case of my D's school, it has always been the ones with higher national (or even internat'l, on occasion) profiles that have nailed the acceptances of the very upper tier, when the competition for those spots is very similar in every other way.</p>
<p>That said, I've never advocated that people do what they don't enjoy doing, in the hopes of getting recognition in that activity.</p>
<p>My D school does not rank either. I think the school profile is sufficient. Not sure what else they can do. However, it's a CA public school so they do have to compute A-G GPA for ELC, not the same as ranking though.</p>
<p>ultimatedream,
Did you mean jerseyboy's question? The answer that was speculated in that post is also the one I understood: The school knows the rank, but doesn't state it publicly. OTOH, I've heard about schools with multiple ties in ranks, who supposedly really do not even list rankings privately, because there are so many it would be "meaningless," they say. My opinion about that is that something is wrong with the standards of grading if that is true. (I do not mean that the ties are not hard-working students, but that perhaps not enough in-depth work is being demanded, with various kinds of assessments, other than an AP exam. There are many elements to a grade, and should be many ingredients to that grade)</p>
<p>Lots of schools don't rank. There is nothing wrong with that, it's not that they cannot rank. I think they can if they want to but they don't want to because they do not want to negatively affect the student admission chances. Smart school I say.</p>
<p>True, TRFA. I have also heard that this is true when there are so many close to each other. However, as other posters on other threads have sometimes noted, there are other ways colleges can make discernments. (A college will ask, "How many share this rank"? and other discriminating quesitons.) But yes, I do see your point.</p>
<p>jerseyboy- if your school makes a point of not ranking students then they will not give out your rank to colleges. Our school does not rank students - we don't have a valedictorian etc. We use deciles to indicate a students achievement in regards to the other students. I would ask your guidance conselor. If he/she says that your school doesn't rank, then I am positive that they will not give the colleges you apply to a rank. However if your school simply doesn't publish the ranks you may want to ask your guidance conselor if they give them out or not, although most times they don't.</p>
<p>"Our school does not rank students - we don't have a valedictorian etc."</p>
<p>These 2 concepts are harmonious with each other, of course, but 'my point exactly.' Our school claims officially "not to rank" (and, like yours, officially reports deciles -- but also has many fuller details to those deciles, wherein it would not be difficult to make further calculations). But the point is, we <em>do</em> have a Val. So you're darn tootin' that the school knows both officially and unofficially who at least the Val and Sal are, if not more than that. (In D's class, there were at least 5 near the very top, so the needed Val calculations probably yielded the precise order of the top 5 as well.)</p>