Following along because I truly understand your predicament and hope things work out. Please let us know what’s decided!
The father is not giving up his duty to pay child support. It probably comes directly from his employer to the child support collection agency of the court. There is no waiving it. Parents - married, divorced, never married- have no obligation to pay the EFC established by Smith or any other school. No court is going to order that (original question posted).
ItsJustSchool, my situation was much like the OPs when I was younger, except that my parents were married. Mother did not work so had no money. Father promised everything, go to school, it will all be fine. Except it wasn’t and I was always looking for money, didn’t get FA, didn’t get much money from home, was always looking for a job. I was at a school I really liked, but it might have been easier if I’d just been at a school I could afford on my own. Having an unenforceable ‘contract’ to make payments would have been a laugh with my father. He had enforceable agreements he didn’t pay (credit cards, loans), so why would he pay an unenforceable one? The moral obligation would be the same with or without the piece of paper. He’ll pay or he won’t, but the paper won’t matter.
The OP’s daughter applied to 19 schools because she knew she needed merit based aid, because she knew the father wouldn’t commit and in the end wouldn’t pay. Now that some of the 19 schools have answered, some answers are yes and some are ‘sure, come, but we’re expensive.’ OP and daughter knew this could happen, it’s happened, and it’s hard to accept. She has some good choices from schools she selected to apply to and wanted to go to. It would have been disappointing if Smith had rejected her, but maybe easier in the long run because then it is a choice between Skidmore and UMass.
OP needs to go back to the original plan, which was apply to a lot of schools daughter would attend if accepted, and of those pick one that is affordable. Skidmore or UMass.
@twoinanddone, I am sorry for your trying college experience. The student’s father has no obligation to pay the EFC. My experience with “flaky” people is that they want to be true to their word, and if they write it down and sign it, the moral obligation is enough that they will follow through.
If it is not, small claims is relatively quick, and is “common sense,” not based on rule of law or precedent (in my limited experience and readings of Nolo books). The father never lived with or married the OP, yet has stayed in the DD’s life. He seems like he wants to do the right thing. He now has a government job, and a “household” presumably with other people in it that have a say in his budget.
When one wins a judgement in small claims court, my understanding is that it is relatively straightforward to file with the Marshall’s office to garnish wages. Straightforward, simple, and timely if you are collecting from a W-2 employee. Generally, someone with a professional job for the government would really not want payroll calling and asking why the Marshall’s office is garnishing his wages- word may get around. Either way, the wages will be garnished with a court order produced by the Marshall.
As I said- I am no expert. Just suggesting a way to enforce accountability so that if the OP accepts the $10K (or whatever it turns out to be), her DD is not in the unfortunate position that you found yourself in with a flaky parent who never fulfills his promise.
I am projecting quite a bit here as to motives and solutions. College Confidential is just a board for brainstorming solutions. OP, take what may work and leave what is too complicated or seems too contrived. Maybe it will spark additional ideas, as well.
Clearly your idea of flaky is different than mine. And none of us has a clue (except the OP, who was reluctant to rock the boat and ask for more child support in the past) whether this bio dad wants to be true to his word. My ex will tell anyone who listens he’s the greatest dad in the world.
ItsJustSchool, my experience with small claims is nothing like yours - and I was a small claims magistrate. Not in Mass, but my decisions were not based on common sense but the law, those pesky statutes and previous rulings which made up the laws in my state. I wouldn’t have found this agreement to pay with no consideration and no legal duty to be an enforceable contract. Just my opinion, but mine was the one that counted. Massachusetts might be different, but enforcing a judgment is not a matter of just registering it and waiting for the check. You can’t just register it and expect the court to do the work. If the bank or creditor gets a judgment, in small claims or ‘real’ court, they can’t just send it to the employer and expect to be paid. Have to get a garnishment order, have it served, have the served party (bank, employer, holder of an account) respond, make a claim on the amount available to be garnished, etc. Not a simple process. I really doubt Mass has a system where a creditor can just hand a judgment to an employer and get the money.
I also worked for the government. Employees don’t want to be garnished. No one does. They do not lose their jobs over it.
In four years, she might end up working for a company has hundreds of thousands of employees. Will that feel too big? Of course not. Because you don’t know all of them. You know your own small community. That is what it will be like at UMass for her. A small community of elite science majors.
@gearmom, I wish I’d read your take on large campuses a year ago! Would have loved to say that to my daughter!
@twoinanddone, I certainly was not trying to be an expert. The number of times I have been within a half-mile of a courthouse in the last decade could probably be counted on the left hand of a careless butcher. It is not an area of expertise for me, but I feel like Small Claims is a place where justice can be found. When I was much younger, I used Nolo Press books for a small case, and I felt that if I did not provide a specific citation to the law and a copy of it that citation; the lawyer who was the “judge” that day may not have ruled the way he did. I have not had to enforce a judgement, but I understood that a judgement could be taken to the Marshall’s office for enforcement (with payment of a fee). Thank you for the education.
And wage garnishment will not lose you your job (were you implying that I thought it would?); it simply has potential to be embarrassing if word gets around.
Like twoinanddone, I have served as a small claims judge. If the law in your state is similar to California law, then your understanding is partially correct. A money judgment may be used to obtain a writ of execution from the Court. The Marshall’s office (the Sheriff’s Office here in CA) would then serve the writ on the financial institution holding the funds you were seeking to execute against. This is where most small claims litigants have problems enforcing their judgments. The writ of execution must specify the financial institution and account number from which you are seeking to take funds in satisfaction of your judgment. Most small claims litigants don’t have this, and they don’t know how to obtain the information.
And here, individuals can’t issue subpoenas or set a ‘debtors exam’ (where they would get the bank account or employer’s information) so have to have the court clerk issue the subpoena, have it served by a disinterested server (usually a process server), and then follow all the paperwork. The sheriff only serves notices of eviction or foreclosure, not collections.
Anyway, the OP is not interested in any of the court options, except maybe having the child support increased, and that is an entirely different process.
@redpoodles I don’t know how these small LACs can hold a candle to an important research university like UMass when it comes to the sciences. If you’re really ambitious, I would think you’d want to be in the thick of it with top research professors. It’s prolonging of childhood to some extent, choosing the small and safe, because in the real world there are too many global players and mastering an environment like UMass is simply the first step.
Edited to add that UMass has Dr. Neil Degrasse Tyson as the commencement speaker this year. I totally have a geek crush on that guy. Can the school get any better?
reply to @gearmom Hmmm, well, I don’t agree there. Top research professors at large universities usually don’t give fledgling undergrads truly significant research opportunities. I got the behind the scenes tour at UMass and this was said to me by the biology Ph.D. students. Big schools have big weed out classes too. As far as “prolonging childhood”–huh? This is totally up to the kid. A kid can stay a kid at a big university (and many do) and also at a small LAC. I’m sure both educational formats have their share of immature students. It’s harder to hide at a small LAC though (this is a plus or a minus depending on who you are). I’m sure NEPatsGirl’s girl can succeed in either format–it’s about adaptability and ambition as much as size of the school. Plus the BioTap program sounds very special (and the exception to the rule–making it more in line with what she’d get at a highly ranked LAC).
I still do like your quote, however, gearmom.
@redpoodles We can agree to disagree but I doubt that UMass Amherst is rubbish in science and engineering in comparison to these top women-only LACs with the only way exception being something like BioTap. I think UMass is better in fact for STEM. The small LACs cannot have the depth and breadth of the programs (and funding) that are found at the larger schools like UMass. Just the classroom experience with a top researcher as your instructor would be different. And you don’t think the students will have any research opportunities? You would have to have zero ambition not to find very special opportunities at UMass especially as part of BioTap and Honors programs. Some of the work these kids do is quite amazing and they start very early in their college career. Sure it is not all handed to them. You have to survive the weed out phase, learn how to stand out and maybe create opportunities but that is exactly what you will have to do in your future science career. I think these small LAC do many things well but for something like hardcore STEM, I don’t know how they truly compete. And as far as prolonging childhood, in four years reality will hit. They will not get to live in a dreamy dream world. You might have to take a job you don’t like in a place you don’t like because the reality is that you have to pay your bill. And the reality of the debt you choose to take on will impact your life and your future families’ life for some time. It makes me sad that parents are pushing themselves far beyond what is fiscally wise.
Huh? I never said UMassA is rubbish in science and engineering. I don’t think that at all! You are projecting and putting words in other people’s mouths. I do think NEPatsGirl’s daughter will have opportunities at UMass, partly BECAUSE she is in honors and BioTap. There are other kids who WILL LIKELY BE WEEDED OUT and not get the opportunities she will get. Sorry, but it’s statistically true. And maybe those other kids SHOULD be weeded out–because, hey, they don’t have enough “ambition.”
That said, an ambitious kid will make it anywhere, be that UMass, Smith, or Community College!!!
Best of luck to you and your kid. As far as your comments about LAC kids living in a “dreamy dream world” where “reality will hit in 4 years” – I think you are the one who is dreaming and you’re being unnecessarily harsh on kids who made other choices than Big State U. Smith kids have to pay bills too. Higher bills. Obviously.
By the way, my daughter’s “top women-only LAC” that doesn’t have “funding” actually has a 1.8 billion dollar endowment, and it’s costing us less than half what UMass would cost. So don’t judge a book you haven’t read.
@redpoodles I never said that small LACs were a dreamy dream world. And you talk about putting words in people mouths. I was CLEARLY talking about employment and finances after graduation. Read the sentences before and after where that is obvious And I did say that I think that small LACs do many things well. Thanks for ignoring that. I simply think that UMass is a better school for STEM but like I said we can agree to disagree. And about funding, glad you love your school and I didn’t say the LACs did not have any funding, but I don’t think its the same level of funding that can be found at some of the flagships For example, for marine biology our school has a research vessel which is on the water most of the year. Maybe your small LAC also has funding for research vessel? UMass has an amazing robotics center. Maybe your small LAC also has an amazing robotics center? I could be wrong but I don’t see how a small LAC can have funding for ocean going research vessels and robotics laboratories. The size of the school allows for a greater breadth and depth. at a flagship simply as a function of scale. But I am done with this conversation.
We’ve been down the LAC vs flagship U road many times so for the benefit of newbies reading this thread I will summarize the wisdom of the crowd in as succinct a manner as I can:
It is agreed that in terms of resources (number of faculty, size and types of labs, breadth and depth of research, extra facilities like the above mentioned research vessel or highly specialized equipment) you can’t beat a big research university. It might not have everything- maybe it’s particularly strong in chemistry and neuroscience and genetics but doesn’t have a huge footprint in aero/astro-- but by and large, for the typical student, it will have deep and varied resources.
It is also agreed that for some kids this doesn’t matter. Either the kids learning style needs small classes, access to professors without having to “compete” with TA’s, or the kids interests are specialized and a particular LAC has that particular specialty covered. In which case- the LAC might well be the better choice. And some LAC’s have very strong departments in a science area and are honest about the fact that if they excel in Bio they may be weak in physics- and don’t have the resources, or its not in their strategic plan to build up their physics faculty, so buyer beware.
It is also true that 17 and 18 year old’s change their minds. Sometimes it’s because they haven’t had exposure to certain subjects (does your HS teach astronomy at a high level? My kids HS did not even though it had a very good math/science department). Sometimes it’s because they find something else to love- Renaissance History instead of chemistry, or Urban Planning instead of Civil Engineering. So picking a college on the basis of one and only one department is often a mistake.
And finally- there are urban myths about both research U’s and LAC’s you need to watch for. Myth- the famous faculty at a large U ignore undergrads and focus on their grad students. Reality- it depends. At some U’s that is not the case- and the faculty are eager to inspire the next generation and often volunteer (or get forced to) teach the big Freshman intro classes. Myth- if you go to a U all your classes will be taught by TA’s. Reality- to my knowledge this is patently false. It is true that in the sciences, having a TA who can invest time in working on your lab techniques or give you review sessions or help you understand what you just aren’t getting can be a real boon. Myth on the LACs- they don’t do real science (i.e. research grants from the federal government or from private industry). Not true- but given the size of an LAC they are not going to field robust teams across all disciplines. Myth on the LAC’s- you can’t get into a competitive doctoral program from one. Reality- again it depends. Admissions to PhD programs in the sciences are going to require faculty at your undergrad college who are willing to pick up the phone for you and call a colleague at another university. Just getting decent GRE scores and a high GPA and a plain vanilla application with no evidence of scholarly potential won’t get the job done. The question of where is this better accomplished- at a big research U or a small LAC- depends who you ask.
Did I summarize our discussions from the last five years or so???
@redpoodles Very last comment. Rubbish might have been a dramatic term but I was strongly objecting to your premise that BioTap was 'the exception to the rule" and might make the program “in line” with the small LAC. I don’t have a horse in the race. I don’t have a child at UMass but it is still my opinion that UMass is the better STEM program based on touring, interviewing alumni and investigating research and laboratories.
@gearmom Re: dreamy dream world: OK I can see that is what you meant and apologize for getting hot under the collar. I agree to disagree!
FWIW (and this complicates the choice) NEPatsGIrl’s daughter has the STRIDE scholarship at Smith. http://www.smith.edu/stride “a scholarship that includes a paid research position with a Smith professor.” This is hard to get as an undergraduate at any public university. Not saying it’s impossible, but HARD TO GET.
I know you are done. But. Because you “asked” questions (and made some insinuations) in the last post, I’m putting this here for others who are researching:
FWIW anyone at my child’s LAC (Wellesley) can cross register for any number of classes at MIT and vice versa. All MIT classes count as Wellesley classes for graduating purposes. MIT has a pretty snazzy robotics lab, if someone is interested in pursuing that. There is also a dual degree program with Olin in engineering, and programs with Babson for business. Smith has its own accredited school of engineering, and Mount Holyoke women can do 3-2 programs with UMass, Caltech, and Dartmouth. All schools prepare their students very, very well for strong graduate placement, both in the sciences, and in the liberal arts.
Anyone, at any school, can pursue opportunities on a research vessel at sea. I learned this not from my child’s school but from our day at Northeastern. Google SEA Semester, if anyone is interested. Every school also has opportunities and agreements with the facilities at Woods Hole for those interested in Marine Biology. That said, if NEPatsGIrls’ girl chooses Smith, she can also use UMass’s vessel through the 5 college exchange. And UMass kids can use the excellent observatory Smith just renovated. It will be ready in May.
The point is, no one school has everything, and every school shares with other schools, no matter how big.
Also FWIW UMass has outstanding new science labs. Truly state of the art. My daughter and I saw them on a private tour last summer. They are really gorgeous and I relayed this info to NEPatsGirl many months ago. We also saw the greenhouses (of which there are many) some of which are great and some of which are neglected. There is a lot of opportunity at UMass and it is not a bad choice by any stretch of the imagination. They offer a LOT of opportunities and a LOT of fun experiences. However, this campus isn’t the best choice for every kid. No campus is.
As far as finances, Skidmore remains the most reasonable choice of these three schools for this family as far as we know. They also have a brand new science center. I hope she liked it. Waiting for the update.
@blossom, most excellent summary, thanks.
@gearmom, your #77 post just showed up for me, after I wrote #78. But I don’t get your point. You toured UMass, but did you tour Smith or Skidmore? Regardless, it doesn’t matter. What matters here is what NEPatsGirl’s girl is thinking about these schools and why. She’s the one who will have to go.