Family Gets Lesson in Admissions

Parents Forum
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<p>I'm with Marite and some others on this one. I think the story was USA Today's choice and they likely contacted all their winners to see where they ended up going to college. This boy agreed to be interviewed. I think, in many ways, for the less informed public, one lesson is to see that even a top student can get denied at top colleges. Besides this boy's academic and EC accomplishments, he was a national winner in the USA Today search. Subsequently, he may be thought of as a top candidate, generally speaking, amongst many, of course. The general public, who do not read CC (LOL), think "top student = any college he wants to go to." and as many CC informed parents know, that is NOT the case. I already mentioned that my D's teachers and GC thought she could name any school of her choice. Had we been naive, like many are, we'd have believed it, but we did not because we are well read on the top of America's elite colleges and the situation with admissions today. So, one lesson that could be learned by readers who read the USA Today article (which might be lost here because WE all knew this already ;) ) is that being tops in lots of areas, including being Val, is no guarantee of admission into certain highly selective colleges. But what it also can show is that such a student will get into some very good schools, as this boy did. And it can show that one not need perfect SATs to get there. But it is not a shocker that he didn't get into Y or P but I think he surely was someone who was qualified. We are not shocked but some of America's public may be, who just are not aware of elite admissions and who can be turned away....meaning even very qualified kids are denied. </p>

<p>You know, I come across kids with FAR FAR less credentials than this boy who wish to apply to the top schools in the land and I'm thinking "what are they thinking???". Do they know that even highly qualified kids are turned away at elites? Vals get turned away! Perfect SATS get turned away. These kids are not even qualified and want to apply. So, you guys are well informed but trust me, many are NOT.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Sure is a tough crowd!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would have to agree</p>

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<p>Icargirl:
I think your point about TJ is extremely important. My son just graduated from MWGSGIS and anyone who chose to stay in their home school instead of attending governor's school had a tough time making into the ivies because even their toughest curriculum is unable to compare to what they would have faced at MW. Of course, no one tells them (or their parents) this in eighth grade when they have these tough choices to make. Even at MW, with so many kids who are super smart, super EC'd, 1550 plus scorers, etc., it seemed to be anyone's guess as to who would be accepted where. My son was rejected at Yale SCEA and Swarthmore, yet got in at Princeton and got an early write at Amherst. A friend with very similar stats and activities was deferred ED then rejected at Princeton but accepted at Yale. No one but the admissions officers will ever know what aspect of the applications give the ultimate results. But even taking out of the equation the kids who apply to these super reach schools with virtually no chance of gaining admittance, there are still way more superb applicants than there are spots. This feeds that unending cirlcle which fosters applying to a dozen or so schools. My son applied to 10 schools and we were thrilled with the results, but also had to laugh at the absurdity of them. The only important thing to me was that he took classes in hs that he was genuinely interested in and that he felt he could be happy for four years at each and every school he applied to. </p>

<p>I don't think the featured boy's story is anything out of the ordinary in terms of admissions. The ultimate issue is that he is happy where he winds up and makes the most of the offerings, be it at an ivy or Podunk U.</p>

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<p>1) 1380 is a low SAT score, not even in the range for most top tier schools.
2) This guy wouldn't even crack the top 10-20 SAT's at most HS.
3) EC - Nuclear fuel cell patent, get real - "and I have the magic pill the will cure cancer".
4) The college admission process is becoming a "way overblown marketing ploy".
5) EC's tend to be the big marketing area, where the academically challenged are allowed to overshadow others who have the academic numbers.
6) I know - 1st hand, as well as many other parents, 1 kid is not the leader of every club, sport, contest, etc. that they participate in.
7) I'm surprised that there was no trip to a deprived country where he helped build houses and provide medical attention to starving aborigines in the darkest parts of some god forsaken jungle.
7) This is not news, and should not be treated as such.
8) I hope that most colleges can see what Princeton and Yale were able to see.
9) Acceptance to Duke is far better than he deserves.
No sympathy here, my nephew with a 1490, Sal, etc. was denied.</p>

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<p>I agree with Curmudgeon</p>

<p>He should be doing backhandsprings that he got into Duke. </p>

<p>The patent may or may not be of much interest. And starting the fencing club is nice, but if he's not very good, then its of no moment. </p>

<p>I like the Eagle Scout thing, but there are an awful lot of Eagle scouts every year. I'll bet there are more Eagles per boys enrolled than there were 25 years ago. </p>

<p>The bottom line is that a valedictorian at a decent sized high school should be able to break 1400 on his boards by far.</p>

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<p>Aren't you all being a teeny weeny bit harsh?</p>

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<p>"9) Acceptance to Duke is far better than he deserves."</p>

<p>Who is it that said, "tough crowd"?? I AGREE!</p>

<p>Sorry, but this kid had great grades and rank and had done some other things. You haven't read his essays or recs and we don't have the whole picture. Also, not every kid is a rep on the state board of education. He won national recognition. He led the school orchestra (for all we know he may be an All State musician), etc. It isn't any ONE thing he did, but he did have a very good package in many areas. </p>

<p>I agree very much with Sewbusy. I have seen many cases where one kid got into very selective college X but not very selective college Y and some other kid had the reverse results. That is exactly why those who apply to elite colleges, no matter HOW WELL QUALIFIED, need to consider them REACHES, even if their stats are BETTER than the majority of applicants numbers-wise, because when a school is admitting only 8-11% of applicants, and trying to build a diverse student body, you can BET that MORE than 8-11% of the applicants were GOOD ENOUGH to get in, but simply could not be given a spot. However, the good news is that most high end students do end up at a selective school. They just can't necessarily be sure WHICH selective school will take them.</p>

<p>I do not share my kids' stats on the forum out of respect for their privacy. However, I wouldn't anyway because of responses like we are seeing here. My kids had better SATs than the kid in the article. However, I bet if I posted D1's verbal SAT score, someone would say....no way she will get into an IVY or something like that. But she indeed got into almost all of her schools, including very selective ones, two of which were Ivies and a waitlist at an Ivy (though frankly, she would never break her list down into Ivy or non-Ivy as she didn't care if she ever went to an Ivy but was looking for colleges that fit her criteria). One Ivy selected her as one of 100 "scholars" (it had a name to it). But if I wrote her score here, the way some posters are, they might say, "no way" or "she didn't deserve it!" I shake my head. Another one of my kids was selected as one of 15 Scholars at her college, one of the top ones in her field, and if I posted her stats, which are very good but not the top stats possible, someone would say, "wait a minute, no fair! she had a lower SAT than so and so had!"</p>

<p>Also, people here do not see the entire story and just the numbers and basic stats (not so different than the crazy, "what are my chances" threads). They don't see the teacher or GC report that says "best in my 25 year career". They don't see the essays. I could go on. A student is far more than their test scores and GPA. Those count but LOTS of students have those so it is a bunch of other stuff that sets them apart. Top schools do not just say, all the 1450+ SATS in one pile, all the others in another. If the stats are in range, then they examine a lot else that sets a kid apart from another. This boy's stats WERE in range for every school on his list. Did other applicants have higher SATs than he did? Sure. But SATs alone do not determine who gets the nod and who doesn't. The question as to whether he "deserves" it....would probably be said by that person about a kid who got a 1600 and was val who got rejected and that he didn't "deserve" that. Well, kids like that also get rejected. That's the name of elite college admissions. People need to stop analyzing who got in and who didn't and the reasons why they think one kid deserved it and another didn't. I think whomever got in, deserved to, because the college WANTED them, enough said.</p>

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<p>The notion that superstars do not need to be nagged or reminded or assisted with certain organizational aspects is absolutely wrong, in my opinion. Many of these highly motivated, highly involved kids are juggling so many things that they need their parent to help them with mundane tasks and to remind them (and yes nag) about certain deadlines. I did this with my kids...and I think it helped them. There are only 24 hours in every day, and it is unrealistic to think that these high achievers should be able to manage every aspect of their lives on their own.</p>

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<p>Donemom, I couldn't agree more with you! I also did the initial investigation of colleges based on my son's unusual interests, made a college spreadsheet, did the cut and paste secretarial grunt work, etc. And he was grateful to have my help, as he had a crazy first semester during his Sr year. But he is the one who wrote his essays [without input from anyone], continued his music EC's, and a scientific internship, studied hard, took the SAT's, and was accepted at a number of colleges as a result of his efforts, not mine. As I have said to many parents who have not experienced having a student applying to college in this day and age, the process is like taking on a part time job, which is NOT something all kids can afford to do their Sr year.</p>

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<p>I was the wrangler, D was the ranch boss. I'd rope'em, get 'em in the squeeze chute and she'd brand 'em, and doctor them up. Division of labor at it's finest. </p>

<p>Someone asked me earlier today why my D ended up not applying to fine school once high on her list. I had to honestly say I had no idea. She never told me. It was just gone one day. I put it back and it was gone again. I stopped putting it back and that was that. </p>

<p>I have no problem with the way we handled it and yes I can hear the rotors overhead. ;) Who cares? And D has been known to say that she doesn't know how anyone could do it any other way (and be as active as she was- BBall Captain, Honor Society President, Marching Band Section Leader , Volunteer , and on and on). A kid who just studied? I don't see that there would be as much of problem.</p>

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<p>Anyone else out there think this sidebar article amusing - in a sick kind of way????

[quote]
The selective college admission process has been compared to a lottery, but Elizabeth Wissner-Gross, a college admission packager in the ultra-competitive Great Neck area of Long Island, N.Y., doesn't see it that way.</p>

<p>"I think there are specific things you can do to get into the college of your choice," she says. Her sons, Alex and Zachary, both made the All-USA High School Academic Team, among a long list of accolades.

[/quote]
Well, duh, the "college admission packager's" sons are both USA High school Academic team. (Say, what is a CA packager anyway????) Her ideas are great - pull your kid out of school to study for the SAT, steer them young to those marketable skills.. I mean worthwhile EC's. Gag me with a spooon!</p>

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<p>cur, I LOVE your analogies! You crack me up.</p>

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<p>At least curmudgeon knows what a helicopter parent aka stage manager is.</p>

<p>It looks like some moms here should look in a mirror.</p>

<p>IMHO if a kid is so heavily committed with outside activities and such that the kid needs a parent to do spreadsheets and reminders for deadlines, then that is a kid who may not have had the chance to develop the responsibility necessary to leave the nest. Do you parents now help your kids keep track of when finals are in college? :)</p>

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<p>Oh for gosh sakes, NMD.<br>
What cur knows is how to disarm criticism before it comes, criticism that wouldn't be warranted but would have been flung at him, by, um, someone here.</p>

<p>You were all over the process back when your D was applying--give it a rest!</p>

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<p>"then that is a kid who may not have had the chance to develop the responsibility necessary to leave the nest"
And you base this scientific observation on what? All kids are alike therefore one method- your method- is the only one that should be used when kids are applying to colege?
You really are something NMD.
Like garland says- lighten up. It is possible you're not the only parent who knows what they're doing.</p>

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<p>This is going off on a tangent, but I did a lot of the grunt/secretarial work for my son (cutting & pasting, etc.) -- and I'm sorry I did. At the time I had a slightly better rationalization than I would now -- it was back in the day when we only had a single computer connected to the internet (mine) and it was a slow, dialup connection -- so it just made sense for me to do it at whatever time was convenient. </p>

<p>But my son didn't do so well when it came to organizational skills at college, like remembering to get assigned papers in on time. So now, in hindsight, I think there was too much reliance on mom to pick up the slack -- every time I played secretary in high school, I was undermining his opportunity to develop the skills to manage things on his own. I should have been less possessive about my computer and just let him bear greater responsibility for the application process. </p>

<p>With my daughter it was different. When it came to the management of things directly associated with getting the application done, I let her take full charge. I am much more confident of her ability to keep on top of everything once she gets to college. </p>

<p>The only exception was with financial aid applications, largely because my finances are complicated and because I'm the one who would pay in the end if she made a mistake with the forms that resulted in us getting less aid than we are entitled to. </p>

<p>I don't care how busy a kid is with all their activities; they ought to have time to fill in a few forms. My daughter was working on college apps at home and at computers at school, whenever she could find the time. It was a stressful time, but she got everything done. </p>

<p>If a parent wants to do the grunt work for their kid, that's fine -- but I just don't buy the "too busy" excuse.</p>

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<p>


I trust that that wasn't directed at me , calmom.;) Every family situation and kid is different, aren't they?</p>

<p>I'm sure that wasn't directed at our situation but .....Since I didn't don't trust online apps (D is still having trouble at her school with forms submitted online to her college- "we never got them" although she has the submission receipt in her hand) , and we didn't bother to get one of the special fill in the blank programs, D filled out all of hers by hand. Other than the essays/statements that she had been working on separately, that was the easiest and least time consuming part of the process. No stress at all. </p>

<p>As to whether or not someone believes she didn't have the time to wrangle the rest of it or should have done it herself out of some misguided sense of letting them take responsibility for trained ape work, I couldn't care less. Now, for someone to think they were taking the moral high ground or engaging in superior parenting tactics for making such a choice is both silly and wrong at the same time and bothers me a little ;) . But hey, if it makes somebody feel better about choices they made - go for it. </p>

<p>Some parents feel that any help in finding their kid programs that fit their kids needs was infantalizing them. I don't agree with that at all. I certainly did research and placed it in front of my D for her decision. Every family needs to do what is right for them.</p>

<p>In our family , for example, my kid took dominion over things that involved thought and discretion but then D was already the organized, meticulous type-it was us who were the slobs. If our kid was a disorganized mess and needed lessons in time management, organization and responsibility, maybe we'd have made a different decision. But with her schedule as a four year year round varsity/club athlete - she had long since mastered those skills. Heck- she could teach the course. </p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

<p>P.s. And as to any ability garland may have thought I had to deflect or disarm criticism - sometimes I can. Sometimes it seems I call in the ordnance on my own position. :eek: LOL.</p>

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<p>You are not alone Cur in hearing the whirl of blades! When you have a year-round 3 season varsity athlete the least of your worries for that student is time management skills and whether they have the ability to fit X amount of characters onto a single line of an online app.</p>

<p>Coaches are very clear that students need support at home to stay healthy, stay on top of grades, stay rested to minimize injury and keep up with other EC committments in and outside of school. And you are also correct that each family needs to do what works for them and help their kiddos along the way. I did not have the financial ability to provide extra prep for SAT courses, outside coaching or lessons, a car for the kids to drive or cell phones for the kids. But I did have the ability to drive them where they needed to be, let them know when something needed to be turned in, who called and when (tried to!), help coordinate visits, coaches, airplane arrangements, take stuff to the post office...</p>

<p>If me being the mom that I am makes me a helicopter parent well then I finally got the wings I always wanted!</p>

<p>The kids are happy with their options and decisions. First time in 4-5 years we have not had one applying to college. The high school junior will be next year.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>Kat, you are without a doubt "Choppermom of the New Century". </p>

<p>You have done such a fantastic job of parenting (so far- you could still screw-up. LOL.) . I know those kids succeeded on their own merits but creating that environment, knowing when to push and when to pull (and when to get out of the way), well.... you can't be matched for consistent results in this process. </p>

<p>I guess those of us who admit to being helicopter pilots can get us a "rotor" patch.;)</p>

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<p>Cur, I'm not directing my comment at anyone in particular. I am directing it at the "excuse".</p>

<p>If a parent wants to be honest and own up to being very involved in the process, fine. But when we say that we are doing something for our kids because they have "no time".... well, I have a hard time swallowing the idea that my kid or anyone else's is so high and mighty that their time is more valuable than that of the primary wage earner of the family.</p>

<p>I mean, cur, isn't there something better you could be doing with your law degree than trained ape work (your words) for your soon-to-be adult offspring? You can make the kid's bed every day and shine her shoes for her as well, -- just don't say it's because the kid has 'no time'. </p>

<p>I don't know about your kid, but someone my daughter had the time to talk 3 hours on the phone to her bf every night, shop for shoes, go to the movies every week, fill out an exhaustive list of her favorite musical artists on myspace, shop for shoes, watch Gray's Anatomy, straighten her hair, paint her toenails and, oh yeah, shop for shoes. So I figure that she in between all those IM's and myspace-comment-posting* she probably could fill out her own address on a piece of paper. In any case, I didn't give a darn, as long as she got in her application to the UC's in November. The UC's provided her the form on line with most of the data pre-filled for her. This thing about applying to a bunch of prestigous east coast colleges was her idea, not mine. So basically, the way I looked at it: not my problem. </p>

<p>And whaddayaknow....somehow it all got done anyway.</p>

<hr>

<ul>
<li>Hey, I just got a great idea. How about instead of the common app and those annoying essays, the kids just submit their school transcripts, test scores, and their myspace URL to the colleges? If the colleges want to get a sense of what the kid is really about, it's all there .... hobbies, interests, books, music, movies, blog, pictures.....</li>
</ul>