Fantastic Front Page WSJ Article on Employment Prospects Post-Law School

Graduate School Law School
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<p>Chris, you really need to tone it down a bit and stop challenging everyone's credentials the moment that they say something that you don't agree with or like, particularly when, as here, you have seemingly misread the point made. </p>

<p>I can't speak for zoosermom's educational credentials, chris, but I am an attorney and I agree with zoozermom's point. If you are going to have a tremendous amount of student loans when you finish law school, as many law school graduates do, than (and only if you are in that position) you must consider what your career prospects and opportunities will be upon graduation since making enough money to actually eat and pay rent, etc. in addition to paying student loans is important. If you won't have student loans, then fantastic for you! Many of the constraints discussed here won't have as much of a day-to-day effect on your life. Be thankful.</p>

<p>There is another point to posting this article, though. Unfortunately, many potential law students who frequent this board, whether or not those students will have student loans upon graduation from law school, seem to be under the misimpression that every young lawyer makes six figures. Clearly, that misimpression can lead to great disappointment, and therefore, it is important that the realities are understood before applying to law school. If one wants to attend law school purely as an intellectual pursuit and law school loans are not an issue, than by all means pursue away! Again, chris, if you plan to go to law school no matter what happens, you have no worries and should not be discouraged.</p>

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<p>Our first year associates make a fortune! We are a medium sized, regional firm; we recruit the top 25% from mostly Texas law schools. We pay "below market" and the first years make $130,000 a year, with the opportunity for bonus money. In my book, that's pretty darned good money for someone who is not a top tier student at a top tier school.</p>

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<p>"In my book, that's pretty darned good money for someone who is not a top tier student at a top tier school."</p>

<p>THat's excellent money. But what about the other 75%?</p>

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<p>Ok, I apologize. I do need to tone it down a bit. I am just very passionate about a career in law and whenever I see something that seems to discourage that idea and suggest that money is the greatest factor, I get a bit angry, and I tend to misread things. I am sorry. Unlike a lot of others on here, I have money saved, and I will also be getting financial help from family. I suppose that is why the debt issue isn't as worrysome for me.</p>

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<p>Chris, that means that you've thought about the money issue and prepared. That's a good and responsible thing and you should be proud of yourself. It's people like you who can be successful, who can choose your own path. I say good for you.</p>

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<p>Thanks zoosermom, and I apologize for being somewhat hostile in my one of my previous posts, questioning you about if you were a lawyer or not, and saying you won't persuade me, etc., that had no relevance on what you were saying, so I apologize.</p>

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<p>Some schools have income protection. Low income jobs and debt payment structured for loaned monies. This allows students to persue public interest and other low paying jobs.</p>

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<p>Chris, that's no problem. I understand and I wasn't addressing you so much as the other people who haven't thought it out. I've recruited for top firms for over 20 years, so I see it from that perspective and I've seen a lot of very disappointed and unhappy people because they didn't know what they were getting into. There is a lot of misinformation and many people who have a vested interest that isn't yours.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I just want to make a living and be happy. I don't even care if I go my whole life without making 6 figures. And I am confident I'll be able to make a living with a law degree. I have a pretty decent situation. My girlfriend got a substantial amount of money from her grandfather through a trust fund, she is going to use that and we are going to buy a house. My first year of law school I doubt I will work but I will be using the money I saved to help make mortgage payments and for other expenses. I will of course have loans, but like I said, as of right now there are people that are going to help me out. With all this I see a happy future, which is all I want, to be happy and to make a living. I may be more fortunate than a lot of other students who don't have anyone to help them, but I am just glad that I have a financial plan for all this.</p>

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<p>" I may be more fortunate than a lot of other students who don't have anyone to help them, but I am just glad that I have a financial plan for all this."</p>

<p>You would be astounded at how many people have substantial undergraduate debt and then incur even more law school debt and then can't pay the loans while actually living. Happens a lot.</p>

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<p>Yeah I bet. I am glad that my undergrad is paid off.</p>

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<p>I think the distinction that is important is that SOME law grads will earn high salaries right away, but QUITE A FEW will not. Having a pulse and a law degree is no guarantee of big money. A big-name school and/or a high level of academic accomplishment will certainly help, of course. That's not to discourage anyone interested in law from attending law school. It just means that it's necessary to synchronize one's finances with the reality of one's prospects after graduation. Taking out big loans for law school makes sense only if one's outlook for being able to afford them later is good. That means looking at the full range of what grads from a particular school earn, and a very conservative estimate of where one is likely to end up ranked. Fully half of the graduating class will be "below average." :)</p>

<p>Another reality check is whether one considers practicing law enjoyable. Internships, volunteering, etc. can help make this determination. The burnout rate among lawyers is probably higher than other professions. Some unhappy lawyers change careers, while others are trapped by the fact that they can't earn as much money doing anything else. Again, that isn't meant to be discouraging, just cautionary.</p>

<p>Law isn't a profession you want to choose by looking down the "average salary" chart and saying "I'd like to earn that much, I think I'll apply to law school." (That's not a good way to choose any profession, of course.)</p>

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<p>Chris: As the parent of rather recently graduate attorney, I can tell you this: If one goes to a top ranked law school, s/he will be employed immediately after law school, paid extremely well, and have little trouble paying off loans. Fortunately, my child went to an Ivy law school, and every single grad had a wonderful job directly after graduation. Most went to top firms that pay (here in NY) about $160,000/year, plus bonus, for first year associates. Others chose to work for federal judges...very prestigious, but low paying, and also not available to those who do not come from top law schools, or who are at the very top of respected law schools. However, this pays off grandly, a year or two later, if those attorneys so choose. The point is, that the doors fly open for those grads who have gone to top law schools. And that is an incontrovertible fact.</p>

<p>Grads can, and do, do well coming from other law schools. However, they have to try very hard to stay at the top of their classes. The higher in the pecking order of rankings, or prestige, if you will, the deeper employers reach into a graduating class to hire first year associates. So, for example, grads coming from Fordham Law, which is an outstanding law school, ranked nationally somewhere in the upper-twenties (I believe), can count on getting a nice job if they fall somewhere within the top 25%-30% of the class. If one comes from New York Law, which is quite a bit lower in that ranking pecking order, unless s/he is at the very top of the class, getting a decent job can be quite difficult, and will generally take quite a bit of time to happen.</p>

<p>If becoming an attorney is your passion, and you do not get into what is considered to be a top law school, it is a wonderful idea to work before entering, and save a nice amount of money to help you pay for school, so that you are not left with huge debt that you might have lots of difficulty paying off. It is also a good idea to try and get summer jobs working for smaller firms, so that you have some nice experience on your resume. But be aware that without a degree from a top school, or without being at or near the top of your class at a respected law school, which is not necessarily at the top, you will almost certainly not be invited to join what is considered to be a top paying firm.</p>

<p>This does not mean that you cannot become a successful attorney. You most certainly can. But you will need to take a different path that is well thought-out so you do not bury yourself in debt, early on. The best of luck to you.</p>

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<p>Chris...Let me add one more thing that bears contemplating. Those students who do wind up with these very top jobs, work incredibly hard, and for a good 60, and sometimes even 80, hours per week. The lifestyle can be very challenging, in that not being in control of your own life is the price one must pay. So, there is really no pancea. The bottom line is, you really have to want it, or have a goal in mind that practicing law at this level will lead to.</p>

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<p>gabriella, you make an excellent point. At many of the top firms, you live to work rather work to live. I worked at a highly regarded regional law firm for 7 years and was part a group of three attorneys offered full equity partnership from a starting class of 33. I left 3 weeks before getting the brass ring, because I felt I was selling my soul at my young family's expense. I moved in-house and have enjoyed a much better life style... and about 60% of the money (still good money and well worth it).</p>

<p>I also went to a mediocre law school because it was where my wife had a job and it was in-state. The firm generally hired a couple of students from my law school, as did several of the other large law firms in the area. However, about 80% of our class struggled to find jobs and those that received job offers were paid, on average, less than half of my starting salary. Although I've been practicing for 20 years, my sense is that graduates from my school are facing the same issue... perhaps in slightly different proportions.</p>

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<p>Well, what exactly is considered a top law school? The top 5? The top 10? 20? I am taking the LSAT this saturday, I am not shooting for a perfect score, but I believe I can get in the 160s. My undergrad GPA is around a 3.5. I've had 2 years of relevant work experience. The school that I really want to go to is UNC Chapel Hill. I think their LSAT 25%-75% is something like 158-162. I think if I do well on the LSAT I have a pretty good chance of getting in there. I looked on a law school ranking list and UNC was like in the high 20s I believe, maybe in the 30s, I don't know. But would that be considered a respectable school? Would I have a chance of getting a decent job if I was in the top of my class there? Another school I've considered in Washington and Lee, they have a median LSAT of 166. My reach schools are the University of Virginia and Duke. Of course, this all really depends on my the score I get this weekend.</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.lsac.org/LSAC.asp?url=/additional-info/transcript-summarization.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lsac.org/LSAC.asp?url=/additional-info/transcript-summarization.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Good luck on your exam.</p>

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<p>Chris, UNC is a great school. If you're a top graduate there, you will do just fine. UVA and Duke are among the very top schools, so make of that what you will. Washington and Lee is a good school, but not top for recruiting, BUT you have the advantage of not having debt so you can do that and still be ok career wise. Have you thought about whether you want a big firm, solo practice, government, public interest?</p>

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<p>Zoosermom, as a Political Science major in undergrad, I am very interested in getting involved with government, but I would open to big firms, as I am intersted in many different aspects of law.</p>

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<p>Haha, looking at the LSAC gpa conversion chart, I really wish my school gave A+'s. Oh well. At least I got mostly A's throughout my undergrad career, a couple B's and one C (Physics, ugh).</p>