<p>Chris, what you have going for you is that you have an open mind and some financial flexibility. I can't over-emphasize how glad you will be of both of those things. That would allow you to choose a "lesser" school if need be and then rise to the top. The outside path to top firms and other great jobs is to clerk for a judge in a smaller state/city and then move on. Those jobs are often for graduates of in-state, smaller law schools. I want you to know that I wish you all the best and hope that you will let us know where you land.</p>
<p>I definitely will. I should have all my apps in by the end of October or early November. I am just waiting on the LSAT score, which I believe I will get as of Oct. 22. Once all my applications are in I will be breathing a huge sigh of relief. I can't tell you how frustrating ths has been, this whole application process, there is this huge weight on the shoulders. After this Saturday, the good thing is that some of that weight will be alleviated, but not completely until I get all the apps in and can relax. Do you know approximately when schools send you a decision by? If you send the app in earlier, do you get an answer earlier?</p>
<p>Chris - I hope I didn't miss this in a previous post, but do you know where you want to practice? Obviously, Duke and UVA open doors everywhere, but depending on where you want to be, UNC and W&L are very well received. In fact, W&L is a higher ranked school than UNC. If you graduate near the top of the class and can swing law review membership, then any of those schools will be fine for "biglaw" and some clerkships. My expertise is in the DC market and you will find plenty of these grads at some very prominent firms in DC. Other grads have "back-doored" DC by going to the prominent Virginia or NC law firms and then lateraling into the DC firms.</p>
<p>This comes from today's WSJ Law Blog:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Leaving the Law To Become a Electrician
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</p>
<p>
[quote]
In the aftermath of Monday’s WSJ Page-One story about the dark side of the legal job market, we received scores of emails from struggling lawyers who say they plan to leave the legal profession or have already done so.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
We also learned that the first lawyer quoted in the story, Seton Hall grad Scott Bullock, has also jumped ship. This week he quit his job at Mirman, Markovits & Landau and will start working for a former high-school friend who is an electrician. Bullock, whose dot-drawing also appeared on Page One, had recently interviewed with another personal-injury firm but learned Friday that he didn’t get the job.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Bullock, 30 years old, says he’ll be paid the same as his lawyer job, about $50,000. Though he says he’ll never join a firm again, he left open the possibility of doing some personal-injury cases on the side. “I’d rather spend one day as a lion than a lifetime as a lamb,” he said of his decision. “Life is just too short to waste it on such a miserable slog.”
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Cartera, is it difficult to get a membership on a law review? I really don't know how the process works, but ever since I decided I wanted to go to law school, I also wanted to get on the law review of whatever school I attended. Also, I'd be up for practicing law wherever. I don't have one specific location where I want to practice. Relocating to a different state would not be a problem at all.</p>
<p>Where are you now? Membership on the main law review is very competitive. There are other "lessor" law reviews, most of which are subject area specific. Many schools offer law review membership to those with top grades after first year. Then there is also the opportunity to "write on" law review. An article is submitted and judged for entry. There are variations on this theme. When I was in law school over 20 years ago, being a member of the National Moot Court team rivaled law review membership at some schools, but I don't think that is the case now.</p>
<p>First post. I'm a lawyer. Graduated Boston University Law School in 1988 and was in the top 25% and Law Review. Took a job at a small firm in South Florida with 1st year pay at $37K (1988). I now have my own firm in South Florida and pay 1st year associates $45-50K as a going rate (2007). I'm sure larger firms pay more but I don't think that is out of line for smaller firms/solos. I'm pretty sure the cost of living, inflation and school debt has risen more than wages, even in our profession. It's sad really, but it is reality and the WSJ is correct to point it out.</p>
<p>Too many people want to be lawyers after just reading a few John Grisham novels.</p>
<p>Sallyawp: I know that firm very well. It is a tiny firm, that is basically a one-man company, that has fairly recently grown to a three-man firm, with a couple of other attorneys who do basic court-going...ie, answering calendar calls, and the like. It is a defense firm, that generally handles personal injury cases. This is the kind of lower level firm that law school grads wind up at early on in their careers, if they do not come from a top firm, or have not performed at the top of their classes. Many of these grads are grateful for such a job, as it can set them on their path for future growth, provided that they have an interest in this sort of practice.</p>
<p>Parentrap: Yes, I think that what you have done is the ideal...work for a top firm for a certain number of years, and then go in-house, to the sort of company that you will enjoy, and will allow you to have a life. Suffice to say, though, one usually cannot get a desireable in-house position, if s/he has not paid dues in one of those pressure cooker top firms.</p>
<p>Chris: Just don't get discouraged, if you have a dream. Remember to work very hard to achieve your goals, and you will succeed. Try to stay at or near the top of your class. If you do what you are supposed to do, and not take anything for granted, you will become successful. For sure.</p>
<p>gabriella, that's true about paying your dues. I work for as an officer for a Fortune 500 company and all of our lawyers are law review, except for two from the Top 14.</p>
<p>Yep, I am definitely going to work hard for it. I won't take law school lightly. I'm ready to give my all and do the best I can there. One of the reasons, but certainly not the main reasons, that I want to go to law school and become a lawyer is because of the hard work. I enjoy working the hardest I can. I enjoy always being busy. Working long hours doesn't bother me if I know I am accomplishing something. I'm prepared to get my ass kicked in law school and in any law job I may have afterward. I'm actually looking forward to it.</p>
<p>Seems to me that the median attorney still gets paid pretty well. </p>
<p>"In May 2004, the median annual earnings of all lawyers were $94,930. The middle half of the occupation earned between $64,620 and $143,620. "</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm#earnings</a></p>
<p>Keep in mind that the above discusses *median*salaries, not average salaries, hence those figures cannot be pulled up by just a few people at the very top making bazillions. </p>
<p>I think we should also be careful to note how well lawyers are doing relative to people in most other professions. For example, on average, lawyers are doing better than engineers, pharmacists, physicians assistants, accountants, scientists, or computer people. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos052.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos052.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos049.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos049.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos047.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos047.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos288.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos288.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos051.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos051.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos050.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos050.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos046.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos046.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos048.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos048.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos008.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos008.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos055.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos055.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos056.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos056.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos054.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos054.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos267.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos267.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos042.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos042.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos045.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos045.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos110.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos110.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos081.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos081.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos073.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos073.htm#earnings</a></p>
<p>And certainly, I think it can be said that lawyers clearly do better than the average American. Let's face it. The average American really doesn't make that much money. For example, in 2005, the average wage index as computed by the US Social Security Administration was found to be about 37k. The median lawyer is therefore making more than 2.5 times more than the average American. These numbers frankly make it hard for me to feel sorry for lawyers. Whatever problems they may have, they're still doing far better than the average American. </p>
<p>Don't get me wrong. I agree that some lawyers don't do well. But the truth is, some people in any profession don't do well. I'm sure that some lawyers can't find a decent-paying job in law and have to take jobs in other fields. But to that, I have to say, hey man, suck it up. Lots of people in other professions can't find decent-paying jobs and have to find jobs in other fields. For example, during the tech bust of 2001-2003, thousands of engineers and computer programmers couldn't find jobs in tech and had to find jobs in other fields. I know one web programmer who got laid off and ended up having to work as a security guard. Some people here may be too young to remember that the world experienced an oil bust in 1998 when the price of oil nearly dropped to $10 a barrel, and boatloads of oil workers were being laid off left and right. I know one guy who graduated with a degree in petroleum engineering around that time and understandably couldn't find a job in the industry and so ended up moving back home and working odd jobs for awhile. </p>
<p>I suppose the value of the WSJ article is that it ought to debunk the belief that people are automatically entitled to get a good job in law just because they have law degrees. If some people used to believe that before and no longer do after reading that article, then I suppose the article has accomplished something positive. But I would question why people would believe such a notion in the first place. Other people aren't entitled to good jobs in the profession they want. Why would aspiring lawyers think they're any different?</p>
<p>The point is not that eventually a lawyer will not be capable of earning a fine living. The problem is that early on, if not employed by a top firm that pays a substantial salary, a law school grad can potentially have a very big problem paying for extremely costly loans.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The point is not that eventually a lawyer will not be capable of earning a fine living. The problem is that early on, if not employed by a top firm that pays a substantial salary, a law school grad can potentially have a very big problem paying for extremely costly loans.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree. Law school has gotten very expensive. There have always been a lot of law school graduates who can't find a job and leave the field. The more debt you have, the bigger the problem.</p>
<p>My dad is a lawyer who got into HYP for undergraduate but couldn't go because of $. Instead went to State U and a State U law school that is not highly ranked. He now makes say around 500,000 $ a year in a firm he founded. This was after he was making 13,000 as a prosecutor...he's just now paying off his final debt. He worked for years trying to build up his skill and reputation because he loved his work. My point is that it's hard tough job to "make it" but it is possible with hard work and intelligence ....or if your father has a firm go work there for awhile. My plan anyway.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The point is not that eventually a lawyer will not be capable of earning a fine living. The problem is that early on, if not employed by a top firm that pays a substantial salary, a law school grad can potentially have a very big problem paying for extremely costly loans.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, I don't know about that. Seems to me that that's not substantially different from people who go to expensive undergrad programs that don't provide strong aid, and who then choose to major in something unmarketable like one of the humanities and also end up with a very big problem paying for extremely costly loans. </p>
<p>Of course, maybe the operational difference is that the guy choosing to major in Art History or Leisure Studies knows full well that he's not going to make a lot of money, but the guy going to a low-ranked law school nevertheless thinks that he will make a lot of money. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, the salient point is that lots of people in many professions have extremely costly student loans. Lots of people can't get decent jobs in their chosen profession. I don't know why the law profession would be any different. At the very least, like I said, the median lawyer makes significantly more money than the median person in most other professions.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My dad is a lawyer who got into HYP for undergraduate but couldn't go because of $.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While I don't know about the past, I can tell you that right now, HYP are among *the most cost-effective * undergrad schools to attend if you are poor. That's right - *the most cost-effective *. That's because of their extremely generous financial aid packages that, if you qualify, result in total costs that are cheaper than that of most state schools. For example, Harvard now guarantees in writing that any undergrad whose families make than than 60k will not have to pay a dime. How many state schools can say the same? </p>
<p>I know 2 people who were admitted to both Harvard and their state school...and chose Harvard because it actually turned out to be cheaper, once FA was factored in. I will always remember one of them acidly joking that he had always dreamed of attending his state flagship school, but he couldn't afford it, so he had "no choice" but to go to Harvard.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Instead went to State U and a State U law school that is not highly ranked. He now makes say around 500,000 $ a year in a firm he founded. This was after he was making 13,000 as a prosecutor...he's just now paying off his final debt
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Speaking of law school, HLS and YLS offer some of the most generous loan forgiveness programs to those who take low-paid law jobs. The calculations can be somewhat complicated but the upshot is that those law graduates who take low-paying jobs may not have to pay a single dime for their law school education. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/sfs/lipp/income.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/sfs/lipp/income.php</a>
<a href="http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/COAP.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/COAP.htm</a></p>
<p>Again, I don't know the details of what happened in the past, so it's probably true that people used to feel that they couldn't go to HYP because they were just too poor to afford it. This is far less of a problem now.</p>
<p>Sakky...When you calculate tuition, room, and board, a law school grad can be left with $150,000, or better (plus interest), in loans to pay. If a grad earns only 35-40,000/yr, and has to pay rent, buy food, and perhaps support a young family...well, you do the math. This is the problem that the posters are encouraging prospective law students to be aware of, and to plan for, if possible.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sakky...When you calculate tuition, room, and board, a law school grad can be left with $150,000, or better (plus interest), in loans to pay. If a grad earns only 35-40,000/yr, and has to pay rent, buy food, and perhaps support a young family...well, you do the math.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And again, how is that different from somebody who goes to a private undergrad program without any financial aid, racking up $150k+ of debt, while pursuing a bachelor's in, say, art history? </p>
<p>I've said it before, I'll say it again. The financial trials and travails of the law students seem to me to be no different from the problems that face plenty of other people dealing with the costs of higher education. At least the law student has the chance, and in fact, the probability (as can be judged by the BLS median attorney salary data) of earning a quite high salary sometime in their career. Many college students, i.e. the ones pursuing humanities degrees, won't get that chance. </p>
<p>That's why I find it hard to sympathize with those law students. Sure, some of them have financial problems. Some of them have career problems. But, hey man, in this world, a LOT of people have financial problems. A LOT of people have career problems. I can hardly see how the average lawyer is really worse off than the average American. Let's be honest - the average American doesn't exactly have a great career making wonderful money. Not even close. Whatever problems the average lawyer has, he's still better off than the average American.</p>